http://www.scpr.org/programs/patt-morrison/2010/08/18/ground-zero-mosque/

Reza made a factual claim that would make a difference to me, but I have never heard the claim anywhere else, and can find no confirmation of it.

##############
Reza:
4:30 mark of the mp3 at the article
Well let’s get our facts straight here. This is not a mosque, and I can’t understand why people keep referring to it as such.
....
5:05
Yes there is a space amongst these thirteen stories in which muslims can pray, but there is also a place for worship for christians and for jews as well. So, the idea that this is about a mosque being built at ground zero is I think a deliberately false way of putting it.
#########

If this is true in any real sense, Reza should get that information out, in detail, with references.

So, what are the specific facts here? What are these three spaces and places, how big is each, and how is each appointed? Basically, do we really have a mosque, a church or chapel, and a synagogue all in the building?

Reza was so studiously vague - “spaces” to pray, and “places” for worship - that I feel the need for some clear, objective, extensional facts.

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What does it matter? Firstly, there is already a mosque closer to ground zero.  Secondly, The First Amendment seems pretty clear.  If we want to re-examine changing that then there’s another issue.

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Buybuydandavis,

Reza is correct that 1. It is not a mosque but a community center 2. It is interfaith 3. The purpose pf the Cordova house is ecumenical and not sectarian.
If you have not heard that I wonder about what sources you are listening to.. Much of the rhetoric of “mosque as symbol of victor” are the same people who bought you the opposition to healthcare bill by claiming government death panel ruling on the worthiness of continuing Grandma’s life.
Shouldn’t we “refutiate” such crude and hate filled propaganda.

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This was such a dumb conversation.  It took like half the conversation for reza to acknowledge that Sam wasn’t arguing for a ban on it, and Sam just kept complaining about all the problems of Islam, barely talking about the Cordova house itself. I’ve never heard such a heated argument about the dictionary definition of “bigot.”

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Sam, it was nice (as usual) to hear your calm, reasoned observations and questions, and you OWNED Reza. It would have been better, though, if you hadn’t repeatedly referred to the “mosque,” since it really is intended as a cultural center with at least a nod to eccuminism, with Christian(s) and Jew(s) on its board. When Reza tried to cite Deuteronomy as a counter-example to jihad in Judaism, I wanted to hear you point out that Deuteronomy was not “inspiring” mass violence in today’s world. Still, when Reza refused to engage the issues of Islam’s connections with martyrdom and jihad, and its intolerance of blasphemy and apostasy, then accused you of broad-brushing Muslims and being a religious bigot, your excellent summary was so good, I grabbed a pen to write it down (paraphrased): “I hope we get to the point where we look back in shame at the kind of aspersions about ‘religious bigotry,’ when what we’re talking about is the consequences of ideas.” Why is it that so many Muslim apologists just REFUSE to discuss this? Is it that they are afraid that if they did, THEY would become the next targets of their radical co-religionists?

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I disagree, I think this discussion was a waste, and I think this whole topic is a waste.  Even if radical muslims do view this as some kind of victory, so what?  How does that change the situation?  What would we do differently?  If anything, we should be MORE welcoming of multicultural centers/mosques/whatever.  How can our enemies see it as a victory if we like it?  If we are allies with moderate muslims, and we have a healthy report with them, that helps alienate extremists.  Don’t get me wrong, I think islam is a stupid and dangerous set of ideas, but when it gets down to practice I think social liberalism and multiculturalism are still our best bet.

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I think this discussion is vital. Not because of this one mosque/Cc, but because of the problem with Islam it brings to public conversation, which desperately needs airing. Political correctness will probably win in the end anyway so try and enjoy yourself in the meantime. Aslan’s got mail from me:

Helo Mr. Azlan, I heard you on Patt Morrison getting hammered by Sam Harris and common sense today! Ouch. It’s a good thing you have a PHD in Islam so you can find a way to obscure the obvious with tortuous locutions. Of course you’re free to believe anything and people do! But should you? You should perhaps use the expression “profoundly misunderstand” more as that’s a good way of avoiding any specific points. You deployed this well in some earlier debates. Poseidon have peace upon your soul.

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debating political correctness and other idiosyncrasies of religion is all well and good, but if you want to talk about that, talk about that.  If you want to talk about something wrong with the cordova house, talk about the cordova house.  The whole dialogue, however, was a giant conflation of those two distinct (although related) issues.  I mean ok - islam is afforded a hyper sensitivity in lots of circles.  We should be allowed to publish cartoons of muhammed, and not get death threats for it.  What does that have to do with the cordova house?  If there is a demonstrable and consequential connection, lets talk about that.  But I don’t see one, and Sam really never articulated one.

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Yeah.  What’s youse beef witda Sufis?

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Poet writes:
Reza is correct that 1. It is not a mosque but a community center 2. It is interfaith 3. The purpose pf the Cordova house is ecumenical and not sectarian.

I respond - blah blah blah. Yes, I have heard the same vague denials that it is not a mosque, that it is interfaith, etc.

I want an objective fact or two, and a reference for it.

I ask again, do we really have a mosque, a church or chapel, and a synagogue all in the building?

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I heard your “debate” with Mr. Ramadan. However, there was so much smoke around that it was hard to keep track of the different moves of the argument. I think you are right to be concerned about the intentions behind the so-called ‘cultural centre’. It seems to me highly likely that the building, whatever it turns out to be, will not be used for interfaith or intercultural understanding as is suggested, but that it indeed means to be the presence of an Islamic organisation as close as possible to the location of a great Islamic victory.

I do not believe that Islam can actually succeed in carrying out interfaith/intercultural relationships in good faith. Since all of the imams of the American Muslim community have refused to sign a statement repudiating the death sentence for apostates from Islam, there is no possibility of such relationship except under false pretences. The relationship is inevitably one way. People are doubtless encouraged to convert to Islam, but the penalty for apostacy from Islam remains death. What kind of relationship is possible on those terms?

Perhaps the constitution permits the construction of the building near the Ground Zero site, regardless of the poor taste of those who support it. But it should be remarked that, whether in poor taste or not, it is clearly intended to send a clear message about the relationship between Islam and what happened there, and it does not strike me as a friendly one.

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freedom of religion doesnt extend to political systems , which is what islam is in reality . It is a political system that preaches world domination and comlete submission in religious guise . We need to appose the building of Islamic centers

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Does anyone have a source for the mosque/church/synagogue thing? I can’t find anything reliable.

And @ Eric: As I understood it the imams wouldn’t sign because it meant ostracization… and if #2 is correct the “great muslim victory” wouldn’t be so meaningful. I personally think we should let them build it and tax the hell out of them. Think of the money they are gonna make there! Damn our founding fathers…

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For a little context on our moderate Imam of the It Aint Ground Zero It Aint a Mosque, I submit an article he wrote in the Huffington Post. He does engage in Aslanspeak - a whole lot of piffle that never seems to clearly say anything concrete and specific, but some of what he said is disconcerting enough to me.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/imam-feisal-abdul-rauf/what-shariah-law-is-all-a_b_190825.html

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf
Chairman, Cordoba Initiative

“What Muslims want is to ensure that their secular laws are not in conflict with the Quran or the Hadith, the sayings of Muhammad.”

I want our laws to have a lot of conflict with the Quran and Haddith.

This brings up the problem with that kind of studied ambiguity Reza engages in. Is it the result of a postmodernist indifference to truth, an honest ability to believe that anything you want to be true is true, or is it a conscious strategy of “playing hide the ball with the article of faith” as Sam put so well? If the latter, who are they hiding it from, less moderate muslims they want to seduce into moderation, or US, with whom they want to make nice as they expand their power here?

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BA writes: Does anyone have a source for the mosque/church/synagogue thing? I can’t find anything reliable.

Maybe that’s because it isn’t true? The moment Reza said it, my ears perked up, because it was so unlike Reza to actually refer to reality. But again, it was that tortured ambiguity, referring to spaces and places.

I sent Reza an email asking him about the mosque/church/synagogue thing.. If it’s true, he should substantiate the claim, because I think it makes a difference.

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A relatively pleasant sermon by our favorite Imam.

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/a_call_to_bridge_the_abrahamic_faiths_judaism_christianity_and_islam/

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I believe that Reza Aslan was lying for Islam when he said that the orignial plan included building a church and synagogue along with the mosque because in the same breath he mentioned that the church and synagogue will be under the imam.  I’m sure right now, they may be thinking of including a church there somewhere but that was never part of the original plan.

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You people are a trip.  According to the Cordoba Initiative website, the community center was always supposed to have, among other things, a “mosque” and “quiet contemplation space, open to all.”  Plus, if anyone cares, a memorial to 9-11 victims.

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Jason wrote: I mean ok - islam is afforded a hyper sensitivity in lots of circles.  We should be allowed to publish cartoons of muhammed, and not get death threats for it.  What does that have to do with the cordova house?

Jason: Cordova house should be taking the lead in drawing cartoons of Mohammed. If they are afraid to, then they are part of the problem. If they were to take a brave stand against the type of censorship that Islam requires, then they would be part of the solution.

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I don’t understand Reza’s whole attitude - he acts like Muslims are being persecuted when infact in the finest traditions of defending liberties they’re being allowed to build the mosque. Any issues of taste or sensitivity are instantly dismissed by Reza as being Islamophobic. Can he at least concede that an extremist interpretation of Islam was operative in what happened on 9/11? I think it’s very troubling if he can’t, and if he can then I hope he has a good answer to the question of where the interpretation went wrong, otherwise it seems that the community center/mosque is a monument celebrating a belief system that can lead to attrocious acts of mass murder. Why is he not more interested in putting foward an explanation for the inconsistency in interpretations of Islam rather than counterattacking with accusations of persecution?

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Great commentary:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?src=me&ref=general
The gist of which states that in a time that Gen Petraeus needs to win the hearts and minds in Afghanistan, many political opportunists like Palin and Fox news using fear to drum up support. I know Sam is in the midst of try to sell his new book, hence he is joining forces with the Pam Gellers of the world. Maybe Fox will give Sam space to hock is new book.

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You people are a trip.  According to the Cordoba Initiative website, the community center was always supposed to have, among other things, a “mosque” and “quiet contemplation space, open to all.”  Plus, if anyone cares, a memorial to 9-11 victims.

So, there’s no church or synagogue as what Reza suggested.

Let me make it clear, they have every right to place the mosque there.  What I’m against are the disinformation that’s being spread.  There IS a mosque being built there.  Questioning the taste of these people is NOT islamophobic.

Let me give a hypothetical:

There’s a local chapter of the Nazi party that does NOT believe in discrimination against the Jews decides to build a community center in Auschwitz to reach out to everyone and spread their beliefs about the differences among races.  Mind you, this version of the Nazi party believes in comity and cooperation and unity among races.  But their core belief that Jews are inherently inferior is still operant, only they do not believe that Jews should be discriminated against.  Do you think it would be in poor taste for them to build that community center?

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Uh, Ralph, I’m not sure you want to be equating Sufis and Nazis in a tutorial on bad taste.

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