I find this so sad but not at all surprising. If anyone expected any less from the extremists, they were only fooling themselves.

That said, I applaud the French government’s renunciation of this “custom” and believe that while it may take time, it will only add to the momentum one can see slowly building towards freedom and equality. I thank them for having the guts to step forward and say what so desperately needed to be said. May it only not stop there.

Vive la France!

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Agreed, someone needs to remind these people that any minute they’ll want to claim Islam is a religion of peace and expect to be taken seriously.

Good on France for taking this stand. The burka is an insult to all humanity, not just the poor woman wearing it.

I wish more countries would sign up.

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Hello

I would not be so eager to congratulate mr Sarkozy on his battle against the burqua.
In the same breath he is making a statment that the religion of Islam should be respeted as much as any other religion ie. christianity.

Would it not instead be better for him to say that religious ideas do not deserve respect? And that they should be on the same foot as any other idea (communism, lebertarianism, evolution…) where critique is not only allowed, but welcomed.

And where does this fashion prescribing end? In the same breath, mini skirts could justifiably be offensive to muslims. And what to say of Hilary Clinton covering her haid with a scarf when entering a synagouge? And should be ban the badges with the anarchy symbol on them because they go against the current system?

What people wear is their own bussines. I agree that they should not be forced to wear the burqa, but in the same breath they should not be forced do take their clothes off because it hurts our concept of liberty.

And has anybody thought that this might just be a political stunt to distract atteniton from larger issues?

I wouldnt be so fast to thrust the pitchfork slogan of Viva la Revolution in the hart of peoples fashion preferences.

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Plemeniti, I am amazed that you would consider this equivalent to a fashion preference. Do you honestly expect us all to believe that these women cover themselves up and never get to experience the freedom of being a real person BY CHOICE?? Perhaps a few of the more fundamentalist ones do, but as a woman who has learned much from the few middle eastern women who have gotten out, I can assure you, it is not all. It is not the majority. Not by any stretch. To convince yourself otherwise is to lower yourself to the equivalent of the extremists who cover them up in the first place.

Now, I should add that if no one stood against religion’s nasty habit of discrimination and subjugation of its followers, slavery would still exist throughout the world, female genital mutilation would be commonplace, and children who look at their parents wrongly would be stoned to death (to name but a very meager few examples). It’s thanks only to the people who have had the guts to stand against the masses and say “this isn’t right!” that things change, slowly as it may be.

And as for Sarkozy perhaps getting into this as a means of distracting attention from some other issue… who the hell cares? The ends in this case will justify the means.

Revolution indeed.

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Reading the statement from the Islamist website I realized that I have no desire to change these people’s minds, even if such a thing were possible.
I also have no longer a desire to even contemplate why they hold these beliefs.
The only thing I want is for these people to die and banish their foul meme to the fringes of society.

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Dear Deb G.

I never said that these women choose to wear the burka, as most of them probably dont.
But think about where this is going. What about the old women in Croatia or Greece that wear a black vail, should we ban that as well?

And what I wanted to point out is that Sarkozy is really not doing it for the right reasons. He is saying the burqua is not a religios symbol.

It is the wrong tactic and it is counterproductive.
Instead of integrating them and offering more education, these women are most likely going to be foced to stay inside rather than go on the streets and expose themselves to the kuffar (infidels).

So if you are trying to promote reason, I would suggest you should consider the consequences of your action and make sure they are not actually counterproductive. Because if they are then you might have the moral high ground but still be irrational in your approach.

So just to clarify…
I think the burqa is an offensive religious symbol, but the choice to wear it should be in the hands of the one who wears it.

Best, Miha

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I think France has done the right thing.  The Burka denies a woman her existance, it is unhealthy physically and socially. How can you say that it is a woman’s “choice” to wear the Burka? What choice does she really have when she has been raised since childhood to think that men are out to rape her and that she will is an evil sinner if she dares to show a leg or arm? We regulate what people wear everyday, afterall its illegal to go around naked. To say outlawing the Burka is a slippery sloap to outlawing other fashion statements is absurd.

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Again I would like to say that I understand that women are forced into weaing the burqa and have been brought up to think this is what is appropriate and expected from them.
All Im saying is that limiting their freedoms even further will only make them more defensive.

They should be educated to know that they have a choice and given more assistance in their fight for freedom.
What about skirts? Apart from the Scots, they serve to discriminate between the sexes. Should we ban them as well because it is offensive to us?
Im not saying it will lead to other outlaws, Im just trying to demonstrate the logic of this.

Best, Miha

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Plemeniti,

Okay. You have made a few good points and given me something to think about all day. Now I have come to several conclusions.

First, you do have a valid point regarding taking a person’s choice away from them, even if it is the choice of only one woman out of a hundred otherwise forced to wear the burqa. I agree that to take away that one woman’s right to cover herself up would be wrong. It would appear to fly in the face of everything freedom loving countries hold dear.

However.

A person’s “freedom” can only go so far as it does not harm another human being. I assume you would you agree with that? Slave owners back in the 19th century fought, and many of them died, for what they believed was their freedom, their god-given right, to own slaves. Or what of the 50 year old polygamist who claims that his religion grants him the freedom to marry and have sex with a 14 year old girl? How about the parent of a 10 year old little boy with cancer who denies him medical care? She says it’s because as a parent, she is “free” to decide what is best for her child. Should we all stand back and stare at our shoes while this goes on? Who will stand up for the slave? The young girl? The sick child?

I agree that every effort must be made by free societies throughout the world to preserve an individual’s rights and freedoms. But, when that right or freedom brings harm to another, stripping another person of their rights or freedoms, it must be stopped. To sit back and do nothing is the very crime of complacency.

In this case, I believe firmly that this is what’s taking place. The vast majority of the women wearing these garments have had their rights, their freedoms, taken away. Maybe outlawing the burqa altogether is not the best or most sensitive response but something surely must be done, and whatever it is, it most likely won’t be pretty. I also believe that as with any major societal shift in the past, it takes time to become the new norm. For the older generations, this would be very difficult indeed. However, in another generation, or perhaps two, there will be stories about it, and the young women will sit around and be astounded at the way women in their culture used to be treated. I know. It has happened in my culture aswell.

As for your statement about education, I couldn’t agree with you more. That truly is the key. My questions is this: do the men who control these women wearing the burqa’s, allow them to go to school? Do they have unobstructed access to books, the internet, or other people from which to learn? And if they don’t (which I suspect might be the case) how would you suggest these women get this education they so desperately need?

Yes, the answers are complicated and solutions won’t come easily, but that is no reason to shrug our shoulders, admit defeat, and go home.

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Hello Deb

Ok, I see you understand what I was talking about but you still dont seem to be completely comvinced.

So think about this; The anti-burqa law just came into effect and your friend has a haloween party.
Its in the theme of Afghanistan and you decide to wear the burqa and get stoped on the way by police.
How are you going to explain to them that this is for fun when they are stuffing you in the back of the car for breaking the law.

This is the problem I have with this law. It is moraly presumptuos because it assumes that we know what is best for these women.
I still think wearing the burqa does nothing but serve the misogony of their husbands but it will not change the thinking of these women.

What he should have done instead (little Sarko) is go on the TV and say; Women of the islamic world, we would like you to know that you dont need to wear what your husband tells you. You are independent and free. To help you further we have set-up a national helpline and a refuge centre for those who suffer prosecution.

But instead of that he is just making them suffer more by making more demands from them.

Best, Miha

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President Nicolas Sarkozy said the garments were not welcome in France because they are a symbol of the subjugation of women.

This is not about making a fashion statement, as some silly person has alluded to, nor is it solely about the subjugation of women. This, if Sarkosy was honest, is about the subjection and the suppression of reason and the continual doctrine of ignorance hawked by all religions. The answer is to let people wear what they want, but not to let up on pointing out that their behaviour and choice of attire is a consequence of indoctrination, not a reflection of free choice. Education over indoctrination, open conversation rather than hidden faces.

What he should have said is that it is perfectly fine for people to wear whatever they want in France. But like most European countries the right to wear what you want is balanced with freedom of speech and the right to say what you wish ( about what many perceive to be the stupid beliefs and customs of religion).  Unfortunately he cannot criticize the stupidity of one religion without encompassing the collective delusions, of Muslims, Christians, Jews and others.

Are the same freedoms, both to wear what you wish and the right to freedom of speech granted to people living in or visiting Muslim countries ?. Well the right to wear what you wish is suppressed in many Muslim countries as is freedom of speech and the cartoon thing could result in you being burnt alive.

As has been said elsewhere however, perhaps this is simply a statement from an aging playboy trying to divert attention away from problems closer to the bedroom.

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Well, I suppose what I am feeling is a tug in two different directions. One part of me wants to fight and help these women - see them go on to lead productive, full lives. The other side of me now sees the reality of the situation and realizes that we cannot insert ourselves into the lives of others and assume to tell them what they need to do and what is best for them. It is just so difficult to stand by and watch these men treat women like shit and get away with it. It was one thing hundreds or thousands of years ago, but this shouldn’t be happening today.

So, in the end I agree with you more or less. In fact, almost immediately after posting my last entry, I began to see the holes in it. Not that I would cast out everything I wrote, rather that I needed to look a little deeper into it. I remain open to any new insights and love to hear what different people think.

Thanks for the conversation!

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“People do not resist change; they resist having change imposed on them.”

Fritjof Capra

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Here is a quote from an article published in French webzine Riposte Laïque (Secular Riposte).  I think it makes some good points that go beyond burqa’s oppression of women.

(My translation)
« (...) Public space is a place which demands sharing.  It does not call for the respect of all differences without any restriction, but it is a place which must hold a common sense, and where to show one’s face demonstrates an elementary openness.  Without this openness one enters in rupture with all sociability.

From this point of view, wearing the burqa is a defiance of the other in lieu of social relationships, it is an intolerable theft of identity which expresses a rupture with the rest of the world, a rejection of the other, and whether it is imposed or a voluntary act of submission changes nothing. (...) »

http://www.ripostelaique.com/La-burka-sous-nos-yeux-des-etres.html

The point they make is that living together in democracy requires some common rules of acceptance and openness toward others.  The burqa is the most visible symbol of open defiance and rejection of this principle that stems from religious sectarianism.  And as such, it is perfectly legitimate for a democracy to ban it.

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Hi

I see not much of what im saying is getting through, so consider this.

The law has just pass and I (a non religious male) feel like wearing a burqa. Lets say Im organizing a protest for women in Saudi Arabia and 1000 young french women decide to join me. Will we get arrested?  Lets say there are some muslim women amongst us who werent forced to wear the burqa but chose to anyway, will only they get arrested?

Or is this law only for those women who are deeply religious and who are forced to wear the burqa?

This policy has got to be the most counter-productive waste of time!

Best, Miha

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@Plemeniti.

Your concerns regarding arresting people for wearing a burqa purely out of choice for a protest rally or a Halloween party are somewhat unreasonable.

The burqa is being banned not to take away freedom from those who want to, on the rare day, choose to wear it as a form of protest or entertainment, but rather to deliver a strong message to the world that a democracy should not and will not tolerate the subjugation of women on a daily basis.

You would do well to respect a law that has been passed for very good, urgent reasons. 

Meanwhile, for your fringe concerns on protest rallies and Halloween parties, I suggest that you alter your themes to something that’s not going to get you arrested, regardless of your intentions.

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