I have to admit a certain amount of ignorance about the subject but except for the NASA link all of your references seem to be either you are your peers. When I was in college a basic rule of thumb when researching was to use independent references from various sources. I would like to have seen some references on heat degeneration for example. how it occurs why NASA scientists think that Saturn’s moon is young ect. As far as I can tell from reading all of your references you created an opinion based on the idea that old planets should not have high levels of heat. The earth and the sun are according to you, 5000 years old. Using your logic the Sun should be the same temperature as the earth. They of course are not. Could it be that there are a myriad of other factors that must be considered using the temperature of planets to determine age?

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As far as I understand science, this observation will be curiously studied by the scientific community and the fact that it actually contradicts the present model (if it really does so) will be gladly used to improve the model. The “Young Earth” model however seems to have been unmodified and unimpressed by the trillions of contradicting observations that scientists have made during centuries.

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This group is called Institure for Creation Research.  They’ve got virtually dozens of “science” articles like this…not being a scientist, I’m hoping someone can provide some insight.

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”...consistent with the written testimony of the Maker”!?! Okay… deep breath! The Maker, huh? And the bible is the best testimony this Maker has been able to come up with? Jesus, help us all!!! I do sometimes wish the Maker’s son actually existed and could intercede for those of us who truly seek truth, justice, equality, etc. What a different world this would be! But back to the world we actually do inhabit, it’s surreal that this sort of “evidence” can be advanced to support anything remotely scientific!

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according to their own logic the solar system is about 460 million years old

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Ben - I think the only way the earth and sun could be the same temperature would be under a long ages model. 

Melina - cocerning contradictin observations - the same can be said for the old earth model.  The difference is that young earth position papers are in fact surpressed by the scientific community.

RayThaw - They in fact have significantly more articles and position papers.  And they are not the only group.

KeithS - your input adds nothing to the discussion.

kinhunter95 - please prove that statement!

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The link to the article is broken.  Perhaps the moon was closer to Saturn at an earlier time and its tidal forces would have been much stronger generating more heat.  In fact tidal forces are the reason the moon is slowly receding away from the earth.  But Goddidit seems to be a more satisfactory answer to some.

I love how the creationists love to use science when it suits them, but then ignore it when it doesn’t.  Faith and reason can not coexist without huge levels of cognitive dissonance.  It’s been a long march out of The Dark Ages.

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Patrick,

The premise that faith has no reason behind it in light of the supposed contradictions with evolutionary and long age theory is absurd.  The evolutionary/long age theories that abound are by no means proven.  In fact, they often come across to the logical mind as a fairytale. 
Furthermore, from the creation scientist perspective those theories never will be proven.  These creation scientists have observed the same evidence that evolutionary/long age scientists have and have come up with a multitude of models that addresses the issues, and in most cases, provides the better answer.
But these scientists face hypocritical barriers to a fair hearing by the scientifice community and many governments.  The reason behind these barriers basically boils down to the absurd argument that since we can’t prove God so we might as well not go there.  That is not logical!

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Chris,

Creationism starts with the assumption that there is a God and all facts must fit that model.  That is inherently unscientific.  The vast majority of scientists would agree with this as well as all court decisions that have dealt with this.  Scientists don’t take creationism serious because it is not science. 

Does the illogical mind consider itself illogical?  And old universe may look like a fairytale to you, but to me the fairytale exists in ancient texts written by those who thought the universe was limited to the earth and sun and its canopy of lights that revolved around us.

An eternity of happiness for the believers.  A fairytale indeed.

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patrick: the article link still works for me.

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”... papers are in fact surpressed by the scientific community…”  I’m not sure they’re surpressed[sic] in a conspiring fashion…I think it’s more likely they’re ignored due to the lack of credibility of the source and methods used to produce them.  Just sayin’

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banana: the link works for me now.  Maybe the site was down at the time.  Funny how the external link to the JPL press report says this:
“A possible explanation of the high heat flow observed is that Enceladus’ orbital relationship to Saturn and Dione changes with time, allowing periods of more intensive tidal heating, separated by more quiescent periods. This means Cassini might be lucky enough to be seeing Enceladus when it’s unusually active. “

Which is exactly what I said.  No mention of this in the creationist propaganda.  I wonder why.  Goddidit can be the ONLY answer.

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New findings lead to new questions and new information and nothing more.  Seems every time we uncover an unknown or simply new information, it some how constitutes a flaw in the entire understanding of existence and of course there in the gap lies god.
I suppose if tomorrow we found out that paper burns at Fahrenheit 452 instead of 451 that would also show that god exists.

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I have long since been released from the awe of the stunningly ignorant of fundamentalists’ attempts to squeeze the universe into the procrustean mold of a holy book. I read of Grand Canyon tours pointing out the tidal marks of The Flood. I read of blithe acceptance of the eons long half life of certain forms of radiation, yet when that same substance is detected nearly fully decayed, the same principle is denied. It is unacceptably sad that these same fundamentalists want to run our government, turning this country’s vast economic and military clout against the rest of the “heathen” planet. Their Armageddon would then be a creature of their own devices, which, of course, they would bear no responsibility for.

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Proof of the FSM,
A grate meatball has thus fallen of the his plate.(rings of Saturn) and yet he shall keep it warm.
RaMen

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