How accurate.

My own deconversion was a lengthy process that went nearly undetected for a while. Not until someone challenged me to examine my vestige of creationism did I realize how complete the deconversion was.

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Is was that bastard Sam Harris. Him and his bloody logic and reason. I was enjoying my sky fairy!!!!!!

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My total lack of belief came early in life right after the discovery of the myth of Santa Claus. While raised in a practising Christian family, I was always questioning the reasoning and the science of biblical dogma. Happily I watched my parents reject all other world religions, then Catholicism, then evangelical fundamentalism, so I easily went the next step…......all religions were just a nice comforting Santa Claus creation.
Soon in life, my education was always heavily loaded with logic, science, history, geology etc so even when some denominations chose “new curricula”, I moved well outside the box. In my adulthood, I was always amazed at how highly educated and apparently clever people could be so easily taken in by dogma. I learned how easy it was to dupe people with specific psychological deficiencies as missionaries set out to convert theignorant masses, the poor, the needy, the druggies, and on and on.
In spite of my personal beliefs I went along with family and the traditions of baptizing children, playing santa claus, the tooth fairies etc. Finally, as my six grandchildren are growing into post Santa thinking children, I no longer attend church except for weddings, funerals , or social secular gatherings. I enjoy working with local Freethinkers and Humanists. I work hard in politics to ensure Freedom From Religion, and as a professor always promoted Logic, Science, Free Thinking etc.
My own son and daughter are quite lukewarm and only adhere to the use of a church as a Community Support system and the dogma and rituals are quite minimal. I enjoy teaching others to question dogma and the fairy tales of life.

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I left a comment last night but it did not post. why?

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As a researcher for these past 18 years into the mysteries of life I have discovered some interesting phenomena.

One: atheism can be as rigid as a fundamental religion. I found it of interest that when Harris was on Bill’s show last night he stayed away from the word atheism. I have found once we identify with a group we are prone to the bias of the group. Any individual, any group that claims a complete absence of bias has just admitted their bias.

Two: science can become scientism. I have found that many atheists worship at the altar of science. When we look at the history of science one may not want to worship at that altar. I.e. much paradigm paralysis exists there. New discoveries are often if not always rejected by the establishment of current beliefs or scientific paradigm.

Truth: what is truth? One must be very careful and avoid thinking they know truth. The thinking I know truth or truths can be very ego bound. Truth can come to us in degrees or levels when we are ready for them to enter our consciousness. When I started my research I wanted to find ultimate truth or truths. There is tremendous variation in levels of consciousness in the world and judging others truths is a slippery slope of self-confirmatory thinking.

Reason: what is reason? One person’s reason is another person’s dogma. Reason may be very influenced by subconscious beliefs or even paradigms that are hidden from our personal view. Many very intellectual people have great reasoning abilities but believe some interesting beliefs, which many would consider dogma.

The problem becomes most humans think they have great reasoning abilities. Yes even the atheists, especially the atheists.

I feel at this time that seeking the underlying meanings of phenomena may be more beneficial than just relying on one’s reasoning abilities. Of course maybe one has to rely on reasoning abilities to seek those meanings. It seems to me one must attempt to be very humble before seeking the meaning or reason for human behavior or the underlying reality of that behavior may never be discovered.

Like the preacher who wants to kill homosexuals. One may decide using their reasoning abilities that he believes everything in the bible but the underlying meaning of his preaching such dogma may have to do with what he perceives as his inner demons. I.e. his own gay thoughts. Not sure that was a good example.

All phenomena have an underlying existential meaning. We live in a relative phenomenal world and that in itself has what I believe at this time a profound underlying meaning.

Enough for now see how this fly’s. First timer here.

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Mr. Harris not only avoided the word aetheist, on the Maher show, he also used a phrase, “one god farther”.    How could that a phrase ever represent aetheism, in the context it was used, alludes me.  However, being agnostic (and not afraid to be labeled as such),  I find it perfect phrase for agnosticism.  Thankyou Mr. Harris. 

Though the dogma relevent to a historical past that are associated to the Jewish, Christian or Islamic faiths, can be dismissed,  the underlying notion of a universal interconnectedness, is at present neither provable or disprovable. 

jdh

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Growing up in a secular household can feel socially crippling at times; especially in regions where it still acceptable to ask a stranger (usually by the 2nd or 3rd question) what church he attends.

I have learned to embraced my Agnosticism and listen to others without comment or judgment.

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“Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, spiritual beings, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove and hence unknowable. [1] It is not a religious declaration in itself and the terms are not mutually exclusive. [2]”

I agree that ultimate reality may be unknowable but I believe it is possible to know within probabilities that spiritual beings exist or not exist and an after life exist or does not exist.

Because something cannot be proved or disproved does not make it unknowable. The scientific method is based on probabilities not absolutes and we state as facts using the scientific method when in reality it is probabilities not proofs that the scientific method “proves” as absolutes.

My observation has been that most of those that claim to be agnostic are anything but. But your final statement about not commenting or making judgment is very in tune with an advanced level of consciousness.

I think the danger might be if we identify with any group it can influence our views of the world and hinder our ability to be open to past and present research data. To state that life after death is unknowable goes against some pretty impressive discoveries of some very impressive scientists and what their research revealed to them. I.e. William Crookes and Lodge are two that come to mind.

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I find it odd…at least the way it is phrased…“lost my faith”.  I do not consider it a loss.  I am rid of belief and faith and that is a gain and not a loss any more than it is a loss to have a cancerous tumor removed.  Belief and faith are a cancer on thought process resulting in all sorts of junk thinking.

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Harte3 I find it interesting that when I visit on these atheist websites many of the commenter’s look at belief and faith as something they must rid them selves of. In fact many claim to have no beliefs. The mere statement that one has no beliefs is a belief in of itself.

I think what they mean is belief based in ignorance, which leads to blind faith. Maybe they are referring to the bible. Now from my point of view the bible has some profound wisdom within it but also some profound ignorance. I have found separating the two takes a lot of research into a whole host of scientific and paranormal teachings.

No book is a book of compete truth. Depending on the rational mind or upon just one’s reasoning abilities is no guarantee of finding or knowing truths. The paradigm effect hidden from our view can overwhelm the rational and reasoning mind. I have found very few people in the world that understand the profound influence of the paradigm effect on the human mind, rational or otherwise.

What I tend to see in atheism and many of those that call themselves agnostic is an anti religious stance. Many I have noticed felt taken in as a child and are not about to let that happen again. They become cynical and hostile towards religion and to them all paranormal phenomena are fraud or hallucination prior to investigation. And if they do investigate paranormal phenomena they do so with a materialistic paradigm and therefore they must find an out. Being a materialist is a slippery slope.

I am not here to defend religion from my point of view Christianity pretty much died on the cross but anyone that believes they have no beliefs has not done much introspection as Socrates recommended.

Unless we have complete understanding of all the mysteries in the universe we have beliefs and we have faith in those beliefs; we meaning our minds are not a blank slate. And who among us is going to claim compete understanding of all the mysteries of life?

Look up some synonyms for beliefs and faith and that may help you understand my position of both of these topics.

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Researcher,

You are very circular in your arguments. You talk a good game, but essentially say very little of meaning.

The facts are simple:

1. The idea and concept of there being a God is so ridiculous as to not even deign discussion. It is nonsensical in the extreme. Why do ‘people of faith’ believe in their God and yet do not believe in Zeus or Mithras, or Osiris? Sam Harris was correct - if we dismiss one god, we must dismiss all.

2. The Bible is full of inaccuracies, lies, intolerance, bigotry, violence and hatred. Nothing in it can be proved to be true, so why would anyone accept it as the ‘only truth’ and dedicate their lives to following it, word for word? Any accidental wisdom in there can also be found elsewhere in other more worthy places, and it is not worth the negative aspects of the tome to access those snippets.

Once these two facts are accepted, it becomes very easy to think clearly on the topic of religion.

I was brought up in a religious household and went to a church school. I caused my teachers no end of trouble with my constant questioning. They were lying to me and I saw right through it. Now I am free of that burden, I feel like Harte3… it is not a loss, it is freedom.

I am a free thinker who does not need irrational dogma to tell me how to live my life.

I adore the ‘mysteries’ of life and I have intense wonder at the magic of the world… I do not need to ascribe everything to a ‘divine creator’ in order to access that feeling of awe and joy.

I do not claim to understand everything about the universe. That would be ridiculous for anyone to aspire to. I just want to learn more about the world around us and find the answers gradually, revealing more and more wonders through scientific exploration that is real and measurable. I know that the only way to find any real answers is through science and investigation.

This is not ‘materialism’, it is a quest for truth. It is a quest for freedom from the superstitious hocus-pocus peddled by the religious fanaticists and moderates alike.

Indeed, this quest for truth is not a ‘slippery slope’ - it is a path filled with wonder and discovery. Religion is a slippery slope - to obfuscation, deception, manipulation, inaccuracy and a lack of clarity.

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