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Let’s Talk About God

By Lisa Miller May 27, 2009.

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From the magazine issue dated Jun 8, 2009

The atheist writers Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have presented us with a choice: either you don’t believe in God or you’re a dope. “It is perfectly absurd for religious moderates to suggest that a rational human being can believe in God, simply because that belief makes him happy,” writes Harris in the 2005 “Atheist Manifesto” now posted on the Web site of his new nonprofit, The Reason Project. Their brilliance, wit and (general) good humor have made the new generation of atheists celebrities among people who like to consider themselves smart. We enjoy their books and their telegenic bombast so much that we don’t mind their low opinion of us. Dopey or not, 90 percent of Americans continue to say they believe in God.

This iteration of the faith-versus-reason debate has gone on for years, with no real resolution. Men (yes, mostly men) of faith have published passionate defenses of God. (See Tim Keller’s 2008 The Reason for God.) In response, believers have published accounts of journeys toward unbelief; atheists have testified to conversions. The latest entrant in this category is from the Marxist Terry Eagleton: Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on the God Debate. Yet despite the proliferation of viewpoints, I’m guessing few readers have ever closed one of these volumes and honestly declared themselves changed.

Robert Wright’s The Evolution of God, which comes out next week, is about to reframe this debate. Wright doesn’t argue one side or other of the “Is God real?” question. He leaves that aside. Instead, he grapples with God as an idea that has changed—evolved—through history. Wright is a journalist who specializes in evolutionary psychology, and his previ-ous book, Nonzero: The Logic of Human Destiny, was a reported meditation on the way human evolution changes us for the better. Over time, we’ve grown more moral, more responsible and more in-spired. In The New York Times Book Review, the British pale-ontologist Simon Conway Morris threw down the gauntlet: he accused Wright “of a failure of nerve.” Why not, he asked (and this is my rephrasing), connect that sublime human capacity for moral behavior to the thing that some people call God? (Writing in Slate, the Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker took the opposite tack, accusing Wright of providing ammunition to advocates of intelligent design.)

Wright picks up the challenge in The Evolution of God. He argues that the scriptures of the three Abrahamic faiths were written in history by real people who aimed to improve things—economic, social, geographical—for their constituencies. (And then he exhaustively, minutely catalogs who those writers were and what those specific aims might have been. This is not a book to read on the beach this summer.) But he never argues that what he calls a materialist view of scripture disproves God. Instead, he takes another approach: as our societies have grown more complex and more global, our conceptions of God have grown more demanding and more moral. This is a good thing, for religion can “help us orient our daily lives, recognize good and bad, and make sense of joy and suffering alike.” Wright is optimistic even about Islam in today’s world: “The ratio of good to bad scriptures varies among the Abrahamic faiths, but in all religions it’s possible for benign interpretation of scripture to flourish.”

Though he never comes right out and declares that the human propensity for morality—and, by extension, truth and love—is given by God (or is God), he comes awfully close. In an imaginary debate with a scientist, he compares God to an electron. You know it’s there, but you don’t know anything real about what it looks like or what its properties are. Scientists believe in electrons because they see the effects of electrons on the world. “You might say,” he writes in his afterword, “that love and truth are the two primary manifestations of divinity in which we can partake, and that by partaking in them we become truer manifestations of the divine. Then again, you might not say that. The point is just that you wouldn’t have to be crazy to say it.” (I can already hear Steven Pinker typing like mad.)

With those three sentences, Wright gives relief and intellectual ballast to those believers weary of the punching-bag tone of the recent faith-and—reason debates. The argu-ments are “fun, but they degrade the academy,” said Great Britain’s chief rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, at a dinner sponsored by the Templeton Foundation recently. What they miss, he says, “is that the meaning of the system lies outside of the system and the meaning of the universe lies outside the universe.”

The Evolution of God admits this definition as a possibility. But there are other possibilities as well. In a recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, 60 percent of respondents said they believe in “a personal God.” But what exactly do they mean? That God is like a person? That God talks to them, personally? And what of the others, who imagine God as “an impersonal force”? When people say they believe in “God,” they might be talking about what Harris calls an absurdity. Or they might be talking about the mysterious, unknowable qualities in life (or outside of life) that make us strive toward our best selves.

Miller is NEWSWEEK’s religion editor.

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Or God as an Alien who dumped our species here as we were to violent on the home planet! What, it’s no more ridiculous than any of the other theories lol

# posted on May 27, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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Lisa misses the whole point.  Man’s concept of God is the problem.  Those 90% that say they believe in God don’t all believe in the same description of God.  But the real truth is that if there is a God it is the same for everyone.  Just like gravity affects us all, God, wherever it is, affects us all the same.  So the real problem is coming up with a description of what God is that everyone can agree to rather than trying to make people believe in your personal limited view of what God is.  And with every religion saying they have the truth, I don’t think this common understanding will ever come about.

# posted on May 28, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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3. Muneer Saleh

i think they poeple today who belive in God are just scared to relize how alone they really are in this universe, and wants to explain things they don’t know with a human touch, so they just say “oh there’s a all powerful God with human elements that is with us 24/7 careing and loveing ” i say that might be the clearest way i can explain, that most of it is just mental. But when it gets a seat in power it becomes destrotive.

# posted on May 29, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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4. Joe

OK, let’s flip this argument. What I see is just another excuse for people to hide in their traditional power structure that is releigion. My take is this: there is an evolution of belief, and we are now to the point where we have evolved past the notion of the existence of an almighty omnipotent deity. It’s not like this hasn’t happener before. Judaism (or Zoroastrianism if you want to be techical) were evolutionary jumps for humanity because human knowledge expanded to a point to where polytheism became obsolete and silly. You know, the Greek and Roman myths. Then, the political forces that were dependent reacted by repressing the monotheists until they could no longer deny that their views were obsolete, and then co-opted the new monotheistic force as their own.
relious orders are glorified shadow political forces, period. This book sounds like just another way to string the debate out. Again.

# posted on May 29, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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“You might say,” he writes in his afterword, “that love and truth are the two primary manifestations of divinity in which we can partake, and that by partaking in them we become truer manifestations of the divine.”

Yes, and you might say that this fellow is a Grade-A pompous, obscurantist fuckwit.

# posted on May 29, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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“Dopey or not, 90 percent of Americans continue to say they believe in God.” (Lisa Miller)  Well are they dopey or not? Yes!  And what percentage are plain ordinary liars?  Note to Ms Miller. Not all metaphors work. Comparing measurable, reproducible effects of electrons to the ephemeral ideas of love and truth to a god that isn’t there is a bit of a stretch.

# posted on June 9, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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there is no god and all religions are false! the sooner we start accepting that the sooner world violence will start to dwindle.

# posted on June 29, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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8. Trevor Cross

Electrons are real.  God is not.

# posted on June 29, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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9. babrock

I have read and apreciated both “Non-Zero” and “The Moral Animal” by Mr. Wright.  When I read that he too was to bring out a book on t god issue I was pleased.  When I read that he seams willing to not distinguish between man’s sense of morality and man’s sense of god, I was disapointed.

Whoever said this previosly is correct. Electrons exist. God doesnot.

# posted on June 30, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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10. Chris Short

As Mr Harris might point out, Miller misuses the word “belief.” I’m sure she meant “hope.” People don’t “believe in God,” they hope there is one. I think this is a strong argument that needs hitting home. If nothing else, I would love to see an evolution in religious thinking (and writing) toward acknowledging this point.

# posted on July 9, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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“God is like an electron” is a bad analogy. Electrons are usable power source, but prayer is as useless as tits on a boar.

# posted on July 13, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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“The meaning of the universe lies outside the universe”

Is the equivalent of saying “Well i really dont know what i am talking about”. OR “The meaning of this house lies outside this house” eithier way its nonsense.

# posted on July 22, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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13. Uncle Ernie

Lisa could you explain your talking snake theory? I’d love to hear it!

# posted on August 5, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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90% of the American public believes in god and is very sensitive to any sharp criticism of their belief . yet many among the 90% go forth into the world proselytizing and they dont worry whether others are offended and /or disgusted.. So I dont worry about hurt feelings.

# posted on August 5, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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15. Nico

The most telling part of this article, the part that’s designed to divide the readers into two camps is the following:

“Their brilliance, wit and (general) good humor have made the new generation of atheists celebrities among people who like to consider themselves smart. We enjoy their books and their telegenic bombast so much that we don’t mind their low opinion of us.”

One camp: people who like to consider themselves smart. (Clearly a dig at those that might). I don’t this camp is as interested in being “smart” as they are interested in giving greater credence to reason. I don’t think this camp feels badly about this, nor should they.

One camp: those that don’t mind the supposed shared low opinion of atheist authors. The atheist authors to which I have been exposed seem to harbor no such opinion. In fact, the essence of their writing, to me, seems to insist that humans are much better served by real information, facts, reason, logic, and inquiry than by faith. They seem to be fighting for what they want for all humans: something much better, much more peaceful, much more productive. This fight hardly seems to be the product of their low opinion of any camp but rather the opposite.

# posted on August 8, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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16. Colin

How does a television produce a picture?
Electrons!  Not by prayer or by belief in god!

# posted on August 11, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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This book sounds like a murder mystery where you never learn ‘whodunnit’ If the author believes, as most here do, that human evolution to explain natural phenomenon beyond our understanding is responsible for a collective belief in god (and not the fact that there is a real god) come out and say it. I despise moderate atheists who are content to let others dwell in myth. I only feel sorry for the indoctrinated they coddle. If, on the other hand, the author feels agnostic (50/50) then I don’t care to read his book as he cannot have put any significant real thought into the ‘feeling’ that the reptilian brain which instilled this feeling of God has given him. Our understanding of the universe has evolved along with the capacity for understanding… it’s time to drop the imaginary friend

# posted on August 12, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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18. Rand

Most people I come across say that they believe in “something” and it’s not necessarily called a god.  It could be mother nature or aliens for all we know.  The point is they don’t find the concrete footing they want from organized religion but still decide to believe in some magical power at hand in the universe.  Which is lazy because they stop thinking about things at this point and leave it at that.  This is how you get left with the bogus “I’m just a spiritual person” defense.

# posted on August 22, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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I love how the people of faith love to collect themselves into a mass they call 90%.  Each sliver believes the other is dead wrong and going to some type of Hell but they unite to show their numbers against the non believers.  They kill each other in the name of some type of god and yet the atheists are the bad guys.  Wouldnt the world be a better place if just one specific belief existed and everyone else was an atheist?  Instead there are many beliefs and they are a deadly cocktail when engaged.  I believe it much more statistically accurate to say a Catholic is in an atheists survery group on how much they believe the trueness of the Mormon scripture.  Or the Jews, or the Muslims, and so on.  True they all believe in a higher power, but thats all they share.  I have never been a fan of stats in the media but this one in particular I believe is extremely misleading.

# posted on August 22, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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Professing atheism sets me up for attack from all believers, it seems…and, I guess, rightly so.
But it is blatantly dishonest of any one belief group to claim the members of all of others as statistical brothers, on the one hand, and heretics, on the other.

# posted on August 24, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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Let’s put the shoe on the other foot.
Pointing out the fact that nearly 70% of the World’s inhabitants “reject” Christianity seems like a good strategic starting point for any Christian debate (i.e. You’re the minority here, Pal!), and it would
neutralize that old “90% Believers” canard upfront. 
  adherents.com

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22. John Wilkinson

bad rabbit. - I second your supposition.

# posted on September 3, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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I’m just shocked that any educated christian is able to write lengthy papers arguing for something using such massively flawed logic.  How do they not realize?  How can they just ignore all of their logical instinct?

# posted on November 23, 2009 report this as inappropriate

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I think a few questions are kind of thrown together in this article. First there’s the question wether it’s rational to believe in god (s) and then there’s the question on how the idea of god evolved througout the years.

On the first question most people kind of agree (except fundamentalists of course). There’s no empirical evidence for the claim of any supernatural entity and therefore it’s not rational. This is also my point of view and the heated debate every atheist can win on so many grounds once reading a few books (most notable: The non-existence of God, by Nicholass Everitt. A brilliant logical piece of work that really destroys all pro-arguments. Also Dawkins’ “The god delusion” or Victor Stenger’s “God: the failed hypothesis”  are worth mentioning as are many others but I’ve only got so much time).

The second question on how God evolved is a bit different. I’m currently reading a book by Pascal Boyer and I think his account is more correct than simply “the idea of multiple god’s just seems silly to us”. The concept of a supernatural entity is not hard to grasp for people snce our inference systems are driven by relevance and this counter-intuïtive concept sets a lot of them on fire. So we naturally grasp them. Later on, when literacy kicked in, there became institutions who wrote down a certain doctrine. This one is more general because according to those groups it should work for anyone, not just for local tribes etc, This is why you see so many pluralistic religion-type beliefs in illiterate areas (ancestor’s etc). This means that we have had literacy applied to religion by state-wide religious service-providers. So it’s a text instead of a concept stored a little different in each individual mind, therefore it’s more general.

In the last 250 years or so science provides people with a lot more alternative explanations for the information the’re receiving. This is why you see so little scientists being extremely religious. The concepts are easy to grasp, the empirical evidence makes the difference. Evolution makes a great example. Every tool is made by humans so it’s easy to grasp that people were made in the same way. This is what can happen if you don’t have any other information. Now we have evolution as an alternative and a lot of empirical evidence to back this up so the brain treats the information in a different way. The rational way can win, the irrational way can win, depends on the kind of information or doctrines you are exposed to.

I think the brain really is like a computer; It receives information and if i’s relevant enough it has an effect on our inference systems and on our memory. This can only lead to the conclusion that the information we receive is pretty much the most important thing there is. Information is culturally transmitted and stored in individual brains. This is why you see uncountable religions in the history of our species. I think science has made a huge difference (at least in Europe, in the Netherlands where I live I think only 30% tops is still a believing christian and the rate goes down each year! I’ll publish a research article on that later this week!). Let’s hope this can continue. I don’t think we’ll ever ban religion, but we might be able to ban fundamentalism if we could just provide the right information to all people on a young age.

It’s a great subject!

Cheers,

Dennis.

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25. Bob Bluhm

I’ve enjoyed reading all the reactions to the article. It suffices to say the agurment of Faith vs. Reason is really of no consequence. How do you convince a person who believes in a myth that it is untrue and then propose your defense on a logic that runs counter to their understanding of the myth. A story told over and over with answers however ludicrous becomes tantamount to truth for the believer.  As atheists and humanist we have to continue to publicize and educate, but realize that ‘religion’ will not go away. It’s wishful thinking on our part for that to happen.

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