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Victor Stenger on The Moral Landscape
Posted: 30 July 2012 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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Antisocialdarwinist - 30 July 2012 11:25 AM

I’m saying that how much we choose to value the well-being of future generations is up to us. Even if science can determine the impact of our behavior on future generations’ well-being, it can’t determine how much we should value future generations’ well-being.

As an observational fact: we do not value everyone’s well-being equally, nor do we value future well-being equal to present well-being.

Ok, one more thing. I think the values are built-in. What you suggest is not how high it can be valued, but how much it can be subjectively de-valued. Like I said before, the objectivity can’t be taken away. Subjectivity lies in the degree to which it is recognized. Of course, one can’t be forced to accept or recognize it.

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Posted: 30 July 2012 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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Answerer - 30 July 2012 11:55 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 July 2012 11:25 AM

As an observational fact: most people don’t reproduce because they want the species to survive—they reproduce out of a selfish desire to have children, or because sex feels good.

I’ve got to go so I can’t address everything in full, but I think you’re making Harris’ point here. Since we’ve flown the coup of (not eliminated) evolutionary constraints, your depiction of a “selfish desire” is subjective. People decide (we do have greater choice now than ever before in history), to have children or not for a variety of reasons, and science helps to determine the how and why, all of which are not characterized by selfish desire (ie, need), or at least, it alone. And, sex “feels good” from the evolutionary adaptation of ensuring that reproduction occurs, including bonding of couples and of offspring. Now, applying scientific findings (objectivity) to all of this helps to enhance well-being on a higher individual and aggregate scale when it comes to reproduction and child-rearing. Or no?

“All of this” only helps to enhance well-being on an aggregate scale if you first define the aggregate scale such that it proves your preconceived conclusion. That’s hardly science. Does the well-being of a woman who wants to have a second child outweigh the well-being of all the people negatively impacted by overpopulation? If not, you get China’s one-child policy. Is China’s one-child policy right or wrong? Depends on how you value the well-being of parents who want multiple children relative to the well-being of everyone else. Can you think of an experiment to objectively determine the value of the multiple-child-wanting parents’ well-being relative to everyone else’s?

Answerer - 30 July 2012 12:04 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 30 July 2012 11:25 AM

I’m saying that how much we choose to value the well-being of future generations is up to us. Even if science can determine the impact of our behavior on future generations’ well-being, it can’t determine how much we should value future generations’ well-being.

As an observational fact: we do not value everyone’s well-being equally, nor do we value future well-being equal to present well-being.

Ok, one more thing. I think the values are built-in. What you suggest is not how high it can be valued, but how much it can be subjectively de-valued. Like I said before, the objectivity can’t be taken away. Subjectivity lies in the degree to which it is recognized. Of course, one can’t be forced to accept or recognize it.

You think the values are built-in? Built-in to be what? The same for everyone? Do you have any evidence to that effect? A repeatable experiment that shows your well-being counts as much as mine in the aggregate calculation of WBCC? Or is the built-in objectivity you claim exists of a kind that can’t be taken away as long as you personally believe it; therefore, the scientific method doesn’t apply?

How far out into the future does well-being retain the same value as present well-being? A hundred years? A million? What evidence do you have to show it’s one or the other? What evidence could there be?

How exactly is well-being aggregated, anyway? Harris himself recognized the problem here, I think it was in chapter 2 of TML, when he asked whether we should add it all up or take the average. Each led to what he called “repugnant conclusions.” Is “repugnant” a scientific term? If I find the concept of the earth orbiting the sun “repugnant,” does that mean the earth doesn’t actually orbit the sun?

“The objectivity can’t be taken away” because there is no objectivity to begin with, not when it comes to the relative value of well-being.

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Do-gooding is like treating hemophilia—the real cure is to let hemophiliacs bleed to death, before they breed more hemophiliacs. -Robert Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land

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Posted: 30 July 2012 04:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Well, it seems that we’re all in violent agreement here. I think that both sides of this argument are true at once.

Sam Harris wants to establish “well being of conscious creatures” as moral benchmark allowing us to take a measure of rightness an wrongness.

Yet his ideas regarding free will and consciousness and our ability to make manifest moral certainty in a world that seems to lack it otherwise seem to be at odds with each other. Sam has expressed belief in an entirely physically deterministic universe, one in which everything that does happen does so for a reason, which denies us the ability to choose one ‘moral’ behavior over another.
To the extent that ‘morality’ exists in such a universe is as a result of our doing, and yet we do not choose our doing. We ourselves are the result of our doing, not the other way around, our doing is not the result of “us”.

Look at our gun law debate in the U.S. If we were a society willing or interested in passing gun laws to curb senseless gun violence, then we would likely not be a society that needed gun laws to curb senseless gun violence. It’s hard to get around the idea that we are what we eat.

I can appreciate the “well being of conscious creatures” as substitute moral benchmark for god and the church, but I think it misses the mark as none of those words are sufficiently well defined as to know what they mean. The phrase is vague and arbitrary.

However, I do think that we might salvage the the idea “health” from the wreckage and find in this concept the basis of objective morality. We might then correctly say that which enhances health is morally superior to that which does not.

I think that we might substitute Dennett’s concept of “evitability” for health. If there is anything that we are trying to preserve, that’s it. Though clearly possible in an open system, thermodynamically, life is not the most likely or the most “inevitable” result of the physical processes of the universe. Thus life is the evitable or least likely result. Life is the rarity. This rarity is what gives life value in an otherwise very dead universe. No living thing on this planet is independent of the other living things, past and present. Instead we are interdependent. And life does not start every time a child is concieved or born. The fact is it’s the same life, passed generation to generation up the tree of life. This makes life, very, very special, very evitable. It really only happened once.

Dennett sees evitabilty as providing a few degrees of freedom of will for living things in an otherwise deterministic, inevitable universe. That’s why he’s called a ‘compatiblilist’. I think that I think I agree. All we can do act to increase or maintain evitability or health. It’s very difficult to intentionally act against that, (commit suicide) but it’s possible and it’s that possibility that we hold out against an otherwise invevitable, deterministic universe that cares little for living anomalies.Evolution has provided us with a few ‘proven’ degrees of freedom regarding just how we ‘choose’ to increase our or maintain our evitabiltiy but that’s it. Otherwise shit happens.

So what life does is value life by maintaining homeostasis and by increasing the degrees of freedom of choice. I think that this, the preservation of homeostasis or the staving off of the otherwise inevitable, should serve as the fundamental benchmark by which we measure morality.

Finally, having said all of that. I hear strong overtones of the Tragedy Of the Commons in this thread. What is it to the “individual” to take ‘unfair’ advantage of the commons? What constitutes unfair? Why should the individual care for the group? I think the answer lies above.The individual is dependent and interdependent on the group….meaning the entire ecology.  The other path is that of the cancer cell whose misguided moral strategy brings about an end to all the evitability that made it possible. That strategy works, but not for long and that’s why it’s morally less satisfying. Sooner or later, all the strategies fail.

If there is any thing to being human, it would be the unique ability to come to grips with this fact. We are all temporary passengers on spaceship earth. Anything we do to ‘rock the boat’, or disturb homeostasis or reduce the few degrees of freedom that life enjoys hard won by evolution on this planet could be considered less moral than it could have been. I think a moral life is like a clean backpacking trip. Pack it in, pack it out, leave only footprints, take only memories.

but what do i know, i’m just one cell.

[ Edited: 30 July 2012 04:39 PM by eucaryote ]
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Posted: 30 July 2012 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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eucaryote - 30 July 2012 04:09 PM

If there is any thing to being human, it would be the unique ability to come to grips with this fact. We are all temporary passengers on spaceship earth. Anything we do to ‘rock the boat’, or disturb homeostasis or reduce the few degrees of freedom that life enjoys hard won by evolution on this planet could be considered less moral than it could have been. I think a moral life is like a clean backpacking trip. Pack it in, pack it out, leave only footprints, take only memories.

You had me until here. Here you put humanity above nature/evolution and make morality a feature of it.

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Posted: 30 July 2012 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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GAD - 30 July 2012 06:49 PM
eucaryote - 30 July 2012 04:09 PM

If there is any thing to being human, it would be the unique ability to come to grips with this fact. We are all temporary passengers on spaceship earth. Anything we do to ‘rock the boat’, or disturb homeostasis or reduce the few degrees of freedom that life enjoys hard won by evolution on this planet could be considered less moral than it could have been. I think a moral life is like a clean backpacking trip. Pack it in, pack it out, leave only footprints, take only memories.

You had me until here. Here you put humanity above nature/evolution and make morality a feature of it.

GAD: Nothing in that paragraph, or any other part of his post, came close to putting humans over nature.  As is typical with your posts, you give some vague dismissal or support, with nothing offered in the way of president or facts to support your opinion.

I believe Morality is a part of nature because there is far more evidence that our thoughts are a function of evolution that has bubbled up in nature.  Morality has been a part of human thought for many generations.  There may a valid argument that some moral theory better serves this gift of life than another, but to argue it is not a part of nature is pretty lame.

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“A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward.”

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Posted: 30 July 2012 08:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Jeff M - 30 July 2012 07:36 PM
GAD - 30 July 2012 06:49 PM
eucaryote - 30 July 2012 04:09 PM

If there is any thing to being human, it would be the unique ability to come to grips with this fact. We are all temporary passengers on spaceship earth. Anything we do to ‘rock the boat’, or disturb homeostasis or reduce the few degrees of freedom that life enjoys hard won by evolution on this planet could be considered less moral than it could have been. I think a moral life is like a clean backpacking trip. Pack it in, pack it out, leave only footprints, take only memories.

You had me until here. Here you put humanity above nature/evolution and make morality a feature of it.

GAD: Nothing in that paragraph, or any other part of his post, came close to putting humans over nature.  As is typical with your posts, you give some vague dismissal or support, with nothing offered in the way of president or facts to support your opinion.

I believe Morality is a part of nature because there is far more evidence that our thoughts are a function of evolution that has bubbled up in nature.  Morality has been a part of human thought for many generations.  There may a valid argument that some moral theory better serves this gift of life than another, but to argue it is not a part of nature is pretty lame.

As is typical of your posts you rant presuming the authority of the high road not realizing it’s only oxygen deprivation.

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Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

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Posted: 30 July 2012 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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Eucaryote:

Thanks for your most excellent post.

The biggest problem I have with Parfit’s triple theory is that he leaves his big picture stuff to some Kant tweaking.  I have no problem with his Kant tweaks themselves, it is just that they are focused on rational ways to treat each other.

In his opening paragraph of his book he talks about how it is possible that we could evolve for billions more years, but he does not develop that into a principle.  Anyone looking to nature for a moral heading, I believe, ought to put managing our chances for responsible long term evolving at the top of any principles.

In relation to free-will, he squarely advocates a deterministic view, which I read as compatible with your take on Dennett (who I need to start reading).

In other parts of his book, he argues that it is our beliefs that make it more possible that we can (in the hypothetical motivational sense) choose one action over another.  In his “Normative Concepts” chapter he argues it is morally imperative that we adopt beliefs with normative force (fact based) to the good (tie in with health of life?).

[ Edited: 30 July 2012 08:59 PM by Jeff M ]
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“Dream or nightmare, we have to live our experience as it is, and we have to live it awake.  We live in a world which is penetrated through and through by science and which is both whole and real.  We cannot turn it into a game simply by taking sides.”

-Jacob Bronowski

“A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward.”

-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

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Posted: 31 July 2012 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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GAD - 30 July 2012 06:49 PM
eucaryote - 30 July 2012 04:09 PM

If there is any thing to being human, it would be the unique ability to come to grips with this fact. We are all temporary passengers on spaceship earth. Anything we do to ‘rock the boat’, or disturb homeostasis or reduce the few degrees of freedom that life enjoys hard won by evolution on this planet could be considered less moral than it could have been. I think a moral life is like a clean backpacking trip. Pack it in, pack it out, leave only footprints, take only memories.

You had me until here. Here you put humanity above nature/evolution and make morality a feature of it.

Ok, but I think you are misreading me. I’m talking about science that makes us any different. It’s the science, the accumulated technical knowledge that permits even a glimpse of that 3rd party perspective. A perspective possibly of an extra-terristrial specialist in terrestrial science, especially biology. Such a specialist wold have the qualifications of an expert maintenance mechanic on spaceship earth.

To the extent that we can gain that knowledge we have a chance to alter our behavior into the future in such a way as to increase our relative evitabilty. Other creatures don’t have this slight chance.

The perspective that scientific knowledge provides implies some kind of responsibility. Like being the “doctor in the house” ..... or the engineer.

It’s like we woke up, (gained scientific perspective), to find ourselves as fellow passengers on a magic bus ride to oblivion. The fact that we’re all crazy becomes unimportant. It’s all about the ride, not the destination and if your fellow passengers aren’t having a good time, neither are you.

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Posted: 31 July 2012 08:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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eucaryote - 31 July 2012 08:37 AM
GAD - 30 July 2012 06:49 PM
eucaryote - 30 July 2012 04:09 PM

If there is any thing to being human, it would be the unique ability to come to grips with this fact. We are all temporary passengers on spaceship earth. Anything we do to ‘rock the boat’, or disturb homeostasis or reduce the few degrees of freedom that life enjoys hard won by evolution on this planet could be considered less moral than it could have been. I think a moral life is like a clean backpacking trip. Pack it in, pack it out, leave only footprints, take only memories.

You had me until here. Here you put humanity above nature/evolution and make morality a feature of it.

Ok, but I think you are misreading me. I’m talking about science that makes us any different. It’s the science, the accumulated technical knowledge that permits even a glimpse of that 3rd party perspective. A perspective possibly of an extra-terristrial specialist in terrestrial science, especially biology. Such a specialist wold have the qualifications of an expert maintenance mechanic on spaceship earth.

To the extent that we can gain that knowledge we have a chance to alter our behavior into the future in such a way as to increase our relative evitabilty. Other creatures don’t have this slight chance.

The perspective that scientific knowledge provides implies some kind of responsibility. Like being the “doctor in the house” ..... or the engineer.

It’s like we woke up, (gained scientific perspective), to find ourselves as fellow passengers on a magic bus ride to oblivion. The fact that we’re all crazy becomes unimportant. It’s all about the ride, not the destination and if your fellow passengers aren’t having a good time, neither are you.

I was more thinking if an disaster X an asteroid etc destroys all/most life on earth then what value was a “clean backpacking trip” or a moral life? The answer is really none but we like to believe it matters.

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Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

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The Way of the Mister, Vol. 1: Reparative Therapy

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Posted: 31 July 2012 09:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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GAD - 31 July 2012 08:58 PM
eucaryote - 31 July 2012 08:37 AM
GAD - 30 July 2012 06:49 PM
eucaryote - 30 July 2012 04:09 PM

If there is any thing to being human, it would be the unique ability to come to grips with this fact. We are all temporary passengers on spaceship earth. Anything we do to ‘rock the boat’, or disturb homeostasis or reduce the few degrees of freedom that life enjoys hard won by evolution on this planet could be considered less moral than it could have been. I think a moral life is like a clean backpacking trip. Pack it in, pack it out, leave only footprints, take only memories.

You had me until here. Here you put humanity above nature/evolution and make morality a feature of it.

Ok, but I think you are misreading me. I’m talking about science that makes us any different. It’s the science, the accumulated technical knowledge that permits even a glimpse of that 3rd party perspective. A perspective possibly of an extra-terristrial specialist in terrestrial science, especially biology. Such a specialist wold have the qualifications of an expert maintenance mechanic on spaceship earth.

To the extent that we can gain that knowledge we have a chance to alter our behavior into the future in such a way as to increase our relative evitabilty. Other creatures don’t have this slight chance.

The perspective that scientific knowledge provides implies some kind of responsibility. Like being the “doctor in the house” ..... or the engineer.

It’s like we woke up, (gained scientific perspective), to find ourselves as fellow passengers on a magic bus ride to oblivion. The fact that we’re all crazy becomes unimportant. It’s all about the ride, not the destination and if your fellow passengers aren’t having a good time, neither are you.

I was more thinking if an disaster X an asteroid etc destroys all/most life on earth then what value was a “clean backpacking trip” or a moral life? The answer is really none but we like to believe it matters.

Sure, the bus ride is to oblivion after all. We will meet our end one way or another, sooner or later. BUT, it’s the ride that’s important, not the destination. in lieu of an asteroid, a clean backpacking trip makes the same “pristine” experience available to someone else. It’s not moral to think that you can trash the high mountain lake and poison the water just because it may get wiped out by an asteroid someday? That’s fatalism plus. Don’t you get how dependent you are? You have immediate children, don’t you care?

Mainlining petroleum is only going to get us there, (oblivion), sooner rather than later. Forestalling oblivion is the only moral choice, should we get a choice.

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