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Nothing changes. Watch what happens to all your humanism when life becomes worse in the United Sates and people are fighting for food. Nothing cutsey pooh here. It is easy to express humanistic thoughts when things are going well. However when the cultural cycle begins its decline, then the collective attitude changes. it is the nature of the Beast.
Nothing changes?! I must have been lied to when told of the history of western Europe and the U.S., and all those increased longevity stats. Damm, another bubble popped.
Individual may rise above human weakness but society cannot. it lacks the consciousness necessary for it which is why Plato called it the Beast. Where individuals can develop their being, society must remain as it is.
Nick, you’re still just plainly wrong. History demonstrates it. Society not only can, but has risen above its weaknesses time and time again, and always because of humanistic enlightenment. There simply isn’t an argument you can make against it because the facts of history are there. Do we still have violence, hatred, bigotry, etc? Yes, but not near to the degree of the past, largely because we at least try to learn from our mistakes.
Honestly, some days, I can almost agree with you. Human society is dismal at times. However, when you compare it to the past, we have improved and will continue to do so as long as we don’t destroy ourselves, which is a real concern. If that occurs, however, it won’t be the fault of all of human society, but rather of a small group of people who wield too much power.
Nothing changes. Watch what happens to all your humanism when life becomes worse in the United Sates and people are fighting for food. Nothing cutsey pooh here. It is easy to express humanistic thoughts when things are going well. However when the cultural cycle begins its decline, then the collective attitude changes. it is the nature of the Beast.
It’s humanistic beliefs that tries to prevent life from getting that bad by trying to see to it that everyone has food. Stop being such a pessimist. You sound like one of those angry atheist people.
I’m not being a pessimist.but rather a realist. Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. This is not pessimism. For all those who approeciate it, the question becomes how to change what we are and become more human. This isn’t a matter of the head but rather of the heart. We can know all the ideas of humanism but what good are they if we don’t “understand” them and everything repeats. Grace touches the heart and enables “understanding” normal for conscious humanity
Why is it that starvation is rampant in Sudan? Is it a lack of head knowledge or a lack of “understanding,” the synthesis of head and heart? Since we don’t “see” it for what it is, then it is destined to repeat.
You have your views, and I have mine. The only difference is that history is on my side.
Nick_A is finally, at least to me, showing his basic premises. Does not matter what historical facts or trends are cited, he’ll ignore them or cherry-pick some others to cloud the issue. His mind is made up, and no one is going to change it. Hs’s really BM in a Tux
You have your views, and I have mine. The only difference is that history is on my side.
Nick_A is finally, at least to me, showing his basic premises. Does not matter what historical facts or trends are cited, he’ll ignore them or cherry-pick some others to cloud the issue. His mind is made up, and no one is going to change it. Hs’s really BM in a Tux
Exactly, BM in a Tux. More refined and polite but perfumed and manicured bullshit is still bullshit.
You have your views, and I have mine. The only difference is that history is on my side.
I don’t see how you can say that. We have all sorts of violence and killings going on from wars to abortions. I agree that we have modern conveniences which make life easier and we have modern inconviences that make wars and killings more efficient and justifiable. But it is still the same ol same old story since the world is a refflection of what we are, not what we know.
Individual may rise above human weakness but society cannot. it lacks the consciousness necessary for it which is why Plato called it the Beast. Where individuals can develop their being, society must remain as it is.
Nick, you’re still just plainly wrong. History demonstrates it. Society not only can, but has risen above its weaknesses time and time again, and always because of humanistic enlightenment. There simply isn’t an argument you can make against it because the facts of history are there. Do we still have violence, hatred, bigotry, etc? Yes, but not near to the degree of the past, largely because we at least try to learn from our mistakes.
Honestly, some days, I can almost agree with you. Human society is dismal at times. However, when you compare it to the past, we have improved and will continue to do so as long as we don’t destroy ourselves, which is a real concern. If that occurs, however, it won’t be the fault of all of human society, but rather of a small group of people who wield too much power.
Sciguy, in the past, religion has been one of the tools for raising the moral level of society. Here’s a quote from Farid-u-din Attar, a Sufi who lived in the 12th - 13th centuries. “Religion, as the term is commonly understood, both by the theologians and by their opponents, is not what it seems. Religion is a vehicle and its rites, teachings, and moral precepts are meant to have an uplifting effect on certain communities at certain times. Because of difficulties in maintaining the Science of Man, religion was chosen as the vehicle for human development. This has always been misunderstood by the shallow, for whom the vehicle has become the idol.” We may now, at least in the more advanced nations, have reached a point where religious conditioning is no longer necessary for at least a sizable portion of the population. The reason that universalist religion took over in the late Roman period was that the philosophical schools were only available to the very small educated elite.
Individual may rise above human weakness but society cannot. it lacks the consciousness necessary for it which is why Plato called it the Beast.
Could you give the quotation from Plato where he calls society the Beast.
It is in Book VI of the Republic:
Why, that all those mercenary individuals, whom the many call Sophists and whom they deem to be their adversaries, do, in fact, teach nothing but the opinion of the many, that is to say, the opinions of their assemblies; and this is their wisdom. I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him — he would learn how to approach and handle him, also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse, and what is the meaning of his several cries, and by what sounds, when another utters them, he is soothed or infuriated; and you may suppose further, that when, by continually attending upon him, he has become perfect in all this, he calls his knowledge wisdom, and makes of it a system or art, which he proceeds to teach, although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking, but calls this honourable and that dishonourable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute. Good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes; and he can give no other account of them except that the just and noble are the necessary, having never himself seen, and having no power of explaining to others the nature of either, or the difference between them, which is immense. By heaven, would not such an one be a rare educator?
You have your views, and I have mine. The only difference is that history is on my side.
I don’t see how you can say that.
Then you have no concept of how brutal humanity used to be compared to now.
Burt, I do understand what you’re saying, but personally (emphasis on PERSONALLY) believe that the improvements in society, even when in the guise of religion, is because of a humanistic concept, often against the grain of the religion of the time. Jesus (if he existed) changed the world, but his teachings (minus the supernatural crap) were basically humanistic and heretical. Can’t get much more humanistic than “Love thy neighbor,” or “don’t repay evil with evil,” or many other teachings of his that were completely against the attitudes of the time.
Firstly, I have lost all hopes of an honest and open “debate” with the likes of you avowed atheists, no matter how flowery your atheism seems. So I post the truth about you in plain language. Read back to see how my initial point was never addressed. My fault? Bullshit.
Dennis saw its value, but quickly went on a personal attack and back-peddled all the way home to his family of bobble-heads.
Secondly, I spoke about soldiers, and you posted a quote by a lawyer. Granted, John Adams had much to do about forming our Constitution and perpetuating the Revolution, but he constantly sought to return to his farm.
Now, George Washington was a different sort of man, and the father of our country. And, he wrote this:
The ways of Providence being inscrutable, and the justice of it not to be scanned by the shallow eye of humanity, nor to be counteracted by the utmost efforts of human power or wisdom, resignation, and as far as the strength of our reason and religion can carry us, a cheerful acquiescence to the Divine Will, is what we are to aim.
And, this:
By the all-powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability and expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat, and two horses shot under me, yet escaped unhurt, altho’ death was levelling my companions on every side.
Which brings me to another ignorance and ingratitude of the atheist: namely, that God—the living God, the divine personality who “delights in playing among the sons of men”, the God who fools ignore and idiots deny—is at work in human history, stepping in where and when he is needed in order to save humanity from itself.
Do you see the bravery and greatness of George Washington above, in which he acquired chiefly and directly through his religious convictions?
You just can’t, can you?
And, this is why I observe you, and call you phonies and liars.
Why would I want to “debate” (yeah, right) with the likes of you?
Oh, and, Burt, you Sufi you: “religious conditioning” is what an unenlightened, ignorant person would call the steady and progressive “revelation of truth” perpetuated by the living God.
You continually turn God into a human concept, and then think yourself some sort of spiritual dude for it, when you are the exact opposite of “spiritual”.
You are an intellectual who enjoys reading other intellectuals.
You are an opinionated person who refuses to consider the existence of absolute truth.
You are nothing more than these…but possibly much less.
Firstly, I have lost all hopes of an honest and open “debate” with the likes of you avowed atheists,
You should try to be more honest. You’ve never really been interested in debate, you’ve told us your agenda several times, and it had little to do with debate. And your posts since the derailment of your initial agenda - when you found out Bill Maher doesn’t frequent these boards, has been nothing more than an exercise in self-indulgent self-righteous masturbation.
Edit: If you really want an open, honest debate about something, I’ll indulge you once.
You name the topic. I’ll set the parameters. Then we’ll debate.
And we’ll have to agree to not engage in ad hominems or personal attacks for the course of the debate.
