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Wish I could contribute, but I’ve never been “Conditioned” by any religion, so the process of desensitization from such a conditioning is alien to my background. Easy to say “get over it,” not so easy to do so.
Dennis: Wish I could contribute, but I’ve never been “Conditioned” by any religion, so the process of desensitization from such a conditioning is alien to my background. Easy to say “get over it,” not so easy to do so.
Me either. I wasn’t conditioned by any religion….I totally programmed myself. I guess it’s sort of the same, but not quite. I mean, it’s not like I was indoctrinated from a young age. We didn’t say grace before any meal and had no crucifixes hanging on our walls. As a matter of fact, there is a famous story about my father getting drunk, staggering into a Catholic church, and yelling at the priest. “It’s all BULLSHIT!!!” Actually, I don’t think this really happened. My father had a tendency to brag.
Hmmm…maybe my desire for God is a reaction-formation?
Whatever. I’m sick of thinking about it. In fact, I gave it up for Lent.
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 24 March 2012 01:27 PM
Why is it so difficult for people to accept that this life is all there is? There are lots of answers to this question and I guess I know what they are. Well, I know what MY answers are. I know the difficulties I personally had in letting go of god. I list the most important of them below. I’d like to hear about the difficulties you‘ve had (or are having) in letting go.
The only difficulty I had Rob in letting go, came from being brainwashed at such an early age. Even though the house of cards tumbled really quickly, under the weight of the evidence I found, the feelings of guilt still stayed with me and haunted me for years afterwards.
Sometimes the symptoms can linger, long after the illness has been cured.
Cheers, Martin. That’s the sort of stuff the thread invited people to talk about. I think the first and last paragraphs of the OP made that clear. IBut I guess one should not take too much for grnted in an online foruum. Anyway, thanks for staying on topic.
Guilt is interesting. It is one of the most potent weapons in religion’s evil armory. It is most effective when implanted in children before they know much else, before they have the intellectual wherewithal and the experience to question it and decide that religious guilt is a load of bunk. I imagine it is so effective and long lasting because the brain’s plasticity decreases after childhood and things tend to become ‘set’. The result is that, even though as adults we can see on an intellectual level why it is silly to feel guilt over some of the things religion would have us feel guilty about, it is difficut to ‘rewire’ the brain as we get older and the ‘guilt neurons’ still kcik in more or less automatically.
Unless it interferes with other people’s happiness. My woo, as you call it, benefits myself, as well as society as a whole. Burdened and elated by the possibility that I am responsible for my own evolution, I usually pick up litter or give up my seat to snarling old ladies on the bus.
It doesn’t benefit society as a whole. It benefits snarling old ladies and gives you another reason to primp smugly about picking up a bit of litter here and there. And the same old thoughts that if only everyone would behave as you do, the world would be hunky-dory.
You blame other people’s problems for the fact that your smug primping annoys anyone. You’re still trying to justify your existence. You haven’t let go yet.
You know, Traces, if you can’t write anything nice then you and I will probably get along just fine.
I’ve outlined my childhood indoctrination in a previous thread.
Basically it involved circumcision, prayers, Sunday School, Church, Youth Group, Easter Camps and constantly being surrounded by people bangin’ on with unbelievable superstitious shite. Upon leaving home the ritualistic side of my religious life was left behind and more moderate theism seemed like a natural progression. For years I held on to some deeply ingrained (childish) beliefs, about God, Heaven and Hell etc. mainly out of fear I suppose. In recent years I’ve researched theism v. atheism issues in some depth and confirmed that religion in it’s entirity is complete nonsense - to me. I have no animosity toward peace loving people who practice religion but I do consider the ‘mind forged manacles’ (Hitchens sometimes cited this phrase - I can’t remember who said it originally) of theistic belief a kind of societal poison.
So the dilemma I have is to not be judgemental of individuals who have not yet broken those manacles. I manage to get along with my family, many of whom are quite devout. Sometimes I’d like to attempt to provoke some critical thought or discussion with a jolt of reason but these are good people whom I love and I don’t want to rock the boat too much. See, that sounds condescending, but I do feel as though I’ve been enlightened through the de-theification process.
Considering the tangled neural pathways of irrationality that formed during the indoctriation phase, more rewiring is still required. Just during the course of this thread, Jefe has helped me with the issue of redirecting/refocussing my sense of gratitude for the goodness in life. Thanks to Jefe and all of you. This trip is awesome and essential.
Yeah, the whole indoctrination thing… I don’t think anyone who has not been through it since early childhood can understand how difficult it is to break free of.
And then there is the potential loss of friends or community that you mentioned somewhere else. That can be really difficult when you come from a religious milieu and all one’s friends and family are still in that mindset. As you say, that can be managed. Just because people are still in that place does not mean we have to part ways with them. My mother was a theist and there was no way I was going to dump her just because of that. It really only becomes a problem when people are putting pressure on us to conform. Those people I let go. Or they let go of me. And that suits me. Otherwise the subject of religion and our letting go of it need not even come up.
We can talk about this stuff in here (thank goodness) but I would never have made an issue of it at my mom’s dinner table when I went home to visit her. And it’s not something I make an issue of in daily life. If I am asked about my position I will answer honestly and say I am not a believer. It usually doesn’t go beyond that and I wouldn’t want it to.
Thanks for bringing up the very pertinent issue of religious indoctrination and how you dealt with it. And thanks for staying on topic.
To summarise, to my list of difficulties which was:
- I’ll be all alone. Yeeeks!
- There’s no fucking justice in the world
- The problem of nothing
- Fear of hell
- The problem of whether anything can really matter without gods
posters have added two more. Namely:
- Dealing with indoctrinated religious guilt
- Potential loss of community
Would anyone who has been through the de-theification process care to add any further points?
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 26 March 2012 02:32 AM
If I am asked about my position I will answer honestly and say I am not a believer. It usually doesn’t go beyond that and I wouldn’t want it to.
I go just a little bit further and take the opportunity to interject my position in discussions when I think it’s relevant even though I haven’t been specifically asked. Political discussions especially seem to afford that opportunity. I have to admit, sometimes I overstate the case by repeating it once or twice too often. But, damn, it gives me pleasure to unabashedly declare it. I figure it’s helping society adjust and get used to the fact that there is a normative alternative, especially considering that we are expected to accept the freedom of the religious to openly express utterances and advertisements of faith without regard to their audience where in the past we were expected to remain silent.
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 26 March 2012 03:10 AM
Would anyone who has been through the de-theification process care to add any further points?
My only real difficulty was the impact on my family, mostly my wife, and kinda half failing to keep it from my grandmother (her denial took care of the breech). Other than that it was more intellectually stimulating than anything—kinda exciting, actually.
My upbringing was very religious (my parents still are), but in a pretty tolerant denomination. No fire & brimstone stuff, very ecumenical. And I’m not all that close to my parents. It was an easy break.
I think at some level I was always a non-beleiver, although it was quite awhile before I made the conscious, deliberate break. In fact, when my wife and I got married, we chose to get married in the Eastern Orthodox Church since that’s what she was raised in (she’s not a believer, either, btw—like me, she realized later in life that she really didn’t buy into any of it). In order to get married in an orthodox church, I had to be chrismated/baptized into Orthodoxy, and I never formally renounced it so I guess technically I’m still “in” although I haven’t been to mass or taken communion in well over a decade.
You’re still trying to justify your existence. You haven’t let go yet.
Traces Elk - 18 March 2012 03:51 PM
Let the gumballs roll!
Oh…..hello, Dan.
Traces Elk - 20 March 2012 11:27 AM
I go away for two years, and nothing’s changed.
Speak for yourself. Based on your recent posts, you are the same old cold, cantankerous, contentious, cocky, captious, caustic, crabby, cranky, curmudgeonly codger that you were two years ago.
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 26 March 2012 03:10 AM
Would anyone who has been through the de-theification process care to add any further points?
My only real difficulty was the impact on my family, mostly my wife, and kinda half failing to keep it from my grandmother (her denial took care of the breech). Other than that it was more intellectually stimulating than anything—kinda exciting, actually.
You mentioning family got me thinking Skep, I think I’m still on topic Rob but sorry if I’m not, it seemed pertinent.
Quite a while ago I was visiting my father who is in his late sixties now, I had my copy of the “God Delusion” that I had loaned to a friend, he noticed it and asked if he could borrow it, I said fine, remembering that he stopped going to church 20yrs ago when details of my abuse came to the fore, as far as I knew his views had changed as mine had, maybe I shouldn’t have taken this for granted.
Anyway, we were in hospital last week as he is receiving treatment for a small tumour in his stomach, the nurse came over and started asking the questions they do, when it came to the question on religious beliefs, he went bright red in the face and started to mumble about life and death, about letting go and fear. This was out of character for my Dad who was usually very direct with his views and answers, he then asked if he could write it in himself as it was private.
It was a hard situation to be a spectator of, I could see the conflict and confusion, it’s possibly the first time anyone has asked him straight out and it was obviously a struggle for him. I don’t know what he wrote on the form…
... the nurse came over and started asking the questions they do, when it came to the question on religious beliefs, he went bright red in the face and started to mumble about life and death, about letting go and fear. This was out of character for my Dad who was usually very direct with his views and answers, he then asked if he could write it in himself as it was private.
It was a hard situation to be a spectator of, I could see the conflict and confusion, it’s possibly the first time anyone has asked him straight out and it was obviously a struggle for him. I don’t know what he wrote on the form…
Interesting. It would be important, if at all possible, to ensure he knows whatever he wrote is okay with you—far less important than the profound connection you share as father and son ... but such opportunities are far easier to theorize about than to spot, find or create, of course. Going with your natural expressive tendencies will usually work though, in a situation like that—with family. Ultimately that connection is all that really matters. My dad died in his mid-60s when I was 24 (he was far too intelligent, which he often used to enhance his denial skills, unfortunately—turned out reality (bone marrow cancer) didn’t accommodate his personal sentiments), and I miss not having him around—our religious differences simply don’t figure into it. But then I’m pretty sure he was a lot less into the Kool-Aid than he put on for the home team, so to speak.
... the nurse came over and started asking the questions they do, when it came to the question on religious beliefs, he went bright red in the face and started to mumble about life and death, about letting go and fear. This was out of character for my Dad who was usually very direct with his views and answers, he then asked if he could write it in himself as it was private.
It was a hard situation to be a spectator of, I could see the conflict and confusion, it’s possibly the first time anyone has asked him straight out and it was obviously a struggle for him. I don’t know what he wrote on the form…
Interesting. It would be important, if at all possible, to ensure he knows whatever he wrote is okay with you—far less important than the profound connection you share as father and son ... but such opportunities are far easier to theorize about than to spot, find or create, of course. Going with your natural expressive tendencies will usually work though, in a situation like that—with family. Ultimately that connection is all that really matters. My dad died in his mid-60s when I was 24 (he was far too intelligent, which he often used to enhance his denial skills, unfortunately—turned out reality (bone marrow cancer) didn’t accommodate his personal sentiments), and I miss not having him around—our religious differences simply don’t figure into it. But then I’m pretty sure he was a lot less into the Kool-Aid than he put on for the home team, so to speak.
Yup…
The Old Man is an all or nothing type of guy, he throws himself into most things 100%, whether it’s his “Blues Band”, Coarse Fishing or back then Religion. So being unsure of himself or his thoughts would really knock him, especially in front of family.
Your right though Skep, it’s not what really matters here, we do have a strong bond between Father and Sons, Grandchildren too, we are lucky that way. He knows that I hope, but there is nothing wrong with me reaffirming it, especially in these tough times. Like you I too would miss not having him around.
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