Project Reason is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. The foundation draws on the talents of prominent and creative thinkers in a wide range of disciplines to encourage critical thinking and erode the influence of dogmatism, superstition, and bigotry in our world.

 
   
 
“Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes.”  -  Groucho Marx
Posted: 02 February 2012 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1883
Joined  2006-02-20

This has been posted before, but it’s worth another look.  We see things with absolute certainty.  Witnesses testify in court with absolute certainty.  We have religious experiences with absolute certainty.  ‘Seeing is believing.’

So, which square is darker?  A or B?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/slideshow.cfm?id=169-best-illusions

Image Attachments
133_3376-AB.jpg
 Signature 

“All is all there is, you surely wouldn’t ask for more.”  -  Bill Thomas

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 February 2012 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1817
Joined  2010-08-18

A is a darker shade but B is in the shade.

 Signature 

When you’re chewing on life’s gristle
Don’t grumble, give a whistle
And this’ll help things turn out for the best…
And…always look on the bright side of life…
Always look on the light side of life.
Monty Python’s Life of Brian

  rolleyes

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 February 2012 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  863
Joined  2010-10-10

I had to put post-it notes on my monitor to block the surrounding squares before I could believe they were the same color.  I think your post demonstrates the limitations of our subjective selves.  Sam Harris made a similar point in ‘The Moral Landscape’ with the Monty Hall Problem:

Suppose you’re on a game show, and you’re given the choice of three doors: Behind one door is a car; behind the others, goats. You pick a door, say No. 1 [but the door is not opened], and the host, who knows what’s behind the doors, opens another door, say No. 3, which has a goat. He then says to you, “Do you want to pick door No. 2?” Is it to your advantage to switch your choice?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem

.

[ Edited: 02 February 2012 04:10 PM by Jeff M ]
 Signature 

“Dream or nightmare, we have to live our experience as it is, and we have to live it awake.  We live in a world which is penetrated through and through by science and which is both whole and real.  We cannot turn it into a game simply by taking sides.”

-Jacob Bronowski

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 February 2012 12:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1817
Joined  2010-08-18

Are they really the same colour??

Well I never…

 Signature 

When you’re chewing on life’s gristle
Don’t grumble, give a whistle
And this’ll help things turn out for the best…
And…always look on the bright side of life…
Always look on the light side of life.
Monty Python’s Life of Brian

  rolleyes

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 February 2012 05:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4252
Joined  2010-01-29

Amazing!  I didn’t believe it either!

 Signature 

Whistle while you work.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 February 2012 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4277
Joined  2008-05-23

Oh, yeah, we are easily deluded. It’s not really surprising that kids who have had the religious mind virus drummed into them start to have delusiosn a la BM about god talking to them and demons hopping around their room.

 Signature 

Faith means not wanting to know what is true Nietzsche

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 February 2012 02:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  171
Joined  2012-02-02

It’s funny how as a computer graphics expert, my immediate response was to open the image with the Photoshop and measure the color values. but I guess it would still reinforce the point you were making, in such matters I completely distrust my brain.
Peace,
George.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 February 2012 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5083
Joined  2008-04-05

Is this a defect in the processing of the brain, or a defect in the processing of the sensory input of the eye?

ohh

 Signature 

‘In the name of intellectual honesty we should say we don’t know when we don’t know instead of making things up that fit just to give us comfort that we think we know’

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 February 2012 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  1
Joined  2012-02-19

I also tested in photoshop, they’re exactly the same. The brain is immensely powerful but is easily tricked.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 February 2012 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1883
Joined  2006-02-20
Richie Gregson - 19 February 2012 01:52 PM

I also tested in photoshop, they’re exactly the same. The brain is immensely powerful but is easily tricked.

Would that religions had a photoshop where they could test their beliefs.

 Signature 

“All is all there is, you surely wouldn’t ask for more.”  -  Bill Thomas

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 February 2012 05:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  245
Joined  2009-06-03

The brain does more than tell you what is hitting your retina. It interprets it for you. I’d say it often gives you impressions which differ from “reality”. Optical illusions all rely on this.

I guess that what the brain does is takes inputs, (not just visual and sometimes from internal sources), and translates it into useful information. Evolution has made it so that brain function / interpretations can border on the paranoic. This means that we are predisposed to react rapidly and take care of ourselves in worst case scenarios, but seem fooled under non-threatening circumstances. We can find it hard to believe how we have been fooled by our own minds.

This is why I am very sceptical of so-called ‘personal experiences’. For personal experience to be a reliable indicator of anything, I want to see the experience repeated by numerous people with the same outcomes, under similar circumstances - and especially if ‘well documented’ (eg. by third party observers who were also present at the time). For me, isolated, random and wafflingly unsubstantiated ‘personal experience’ isn’t worth a pinch of parrot poop. This includes my own private personal experiences ! One thing experience has taught me is that I am good at being wrong - smile - so decide for yourself if I am wrong on this.

 Signature 

____________________________________________

Gila monster - a poisonous lizard so sluggish that to get bitten by it, you have to give it help.
[After Dr. Ward - The Arizona Gazette, 1899.]
____________________________________________

Guerilla from Spanish guerrilla for “little war”
____________________________________________

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 February 2012 11:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1817
Joined  2010-08-18
Gila Guerilla - 20 February 2012 05:17 PM

The brain does more than tell you what is hitting your retina. It interprets it for you. I’d say it often gives you impressions which differ from “reality”.... For me, isolated, random and wafflingly unsubstantiated ‘personal experience’ isn’t worth a pinch of parrot poop. This includes my own private personal experiences ! One thing experience has taught me is that I am good at being wrong - smile - so decide for yourself if I am wrong on this.

I agree Gila, like you say, we have evolved in an environment where we need to put together sometimes very sketchy inputs from all our senses, Does that shadow along with that creaking noise and musky smell mean there is danger ahead, or is it swamp mist?
We naturally form patterns to make sense of things quicker, if we didn’t back then, we would end up being lunch.

Looking at a sharper image of the “face on Mars” is a good example of this I think…
If you screw your eyes up and basically make the image more foggy and distorted, the face reappears. So should we believe our eyes?

Image Attachments
 on mars.gif
 Signature 

When you’re chewing on life’s gristle
Don’t grumble, give a whistle
And this’ll help things turn out for the best…
And…always look on the bright side of life…
Always look on the light side of life.
Monty Python’s Life of Brian

  rolleyes

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 February 2012 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1883
Joined  2006-02-20
MARTIN UK - 20 February 2012 11:30 PM
Gila Guerilla - 20 February 2012 05:17 PM

The brain does more than tell you what is hitting your retina. It interprets it for you. I’d say it often gives you impressions which differ from “reality”.... For me, isolated, random and wafflingly unsubstantiated ‘personal experience’ isn’t worth a pinch of parrot poop. This includes my own private personal experiences ! One thing experience has taught me is that I am good at being wrong - smile - so decide for yourself if I am wrong on this.

I agree Gila, like you say, we have evolved in an environment where we need to put together sometimes very sketchy inputs from all our senses, Does that shadow along with that creaking noise and musky smell mean there is danger ahead, or is it swamp mist?
We naturally form patterns to make sense of things quicker, if we didn’t back then, we would end up being lunch.

Looking at a sharper image of the “face on Mars” is a good example of this I think…
If you screw your eyes up and basically make the image more foggy and distorted, the face reappears. So should we believe our eyes?

We can blink and suddenly our perception changes.  Consider The Spinning Dancer.  Is she turning clockwise or counter-clockwise? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spinning_Dancer

Then, consider how small changes in hormone levels, or changes in our circumstances, alters our perception - impacts what interests us.  It once fell on me to deliver some books to a women’s prison.  Clang!  the matron admits me through the first steel door.  Clang!  the second.  Now, here are the inmates.  The catcalls!  The propositions!  Never have I been so popular with the opposite sex.  “Honey!  You busy tonight?”  Many of them young and attractive too.

[ Edited: 21 February 2012 01:03 PM by unsmoked ]
 Signature 

“All is all there is, you surely wouldn’t ask for more.”  -  Bill Thomas

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 February 2012 01:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1817
Joined  2010-08-18
unsmoked - 21 February 2012 01:01 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spinning_Dancer

Then, consider how small changes in hormone levels, or changes in our circumstances, alters our perception - impacts what interests us.  It once fell on me to deliver some books to a women’s prison.  Clang!  the matron admits me through the first steel door.  Clang!  the second.  Now, here are the inmates.  The catcalls!  The propositions!  Never have I been so popular with the opposite sex.  “Honey!  You busy tonight?”  Many of them young and attractive too.

The dancer is really “doing my head in” Unsmoked.

I understand more than most the changes in hormones, my adrenaline problem was a nightmare and now testosterone treatment…what a head bust…and ball bust too… confused

We have no real control.

 Signature 

When you’re chewing on life’s gristle
Don’t grumble, give a whistle
And this’ll help things turn out for the best…
And…always look on the bright side of life…
Always look on the light side of life.
Monty Python’s Life of Brian

  rolleyes

Profile