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Guilt is a sense of shame for having on purpose or by avoidable negligence inflicted on another some injury. It is dependent on recognizing that other people are of some value and worth, which is why it is absent in psychopaths and other narcissists. It becomes incapacitating if a person considers themselves almost worthless in comparison to others, as can be seen in very passive dependent people, and in those cases can be fairly called neurotic. However absent guilt, civilization is not possible as people would behave towards others as if they were a field of tomatoes. A society dominated by guilt is also one dominated by some authoritarian governance that uses guilt as a powerful social control; that is less likely in democracies and more likely in theocracies. Apart from whole cultures, a potential for guilt is also a requisite in intimate human relationships, with again a distinction being made in those relationships in which one person dominates the submissive other, with the submissive person being controlled by neurotic guilt. Guilt cannot be elicited in someone else unless that other person shares a sense of valuing others and that they agree that they’ve caused injury for insufficient reason. “God made me do it,” or “they made me do it,” in reply to some greatly injurious act visited on others is an attempt to avoid personal guilt, and has been seen in both religious fanatics and prison guard responses.
Sometimes a person will say something to the effect of “now you are making me feel guilty.” I like to respond, “sometimes we feel guilty because we are guilty.” I agree that guilt is a useful emotion, but it can also be abused by those in power. Parents, priests, preachers, politicians, and other Pee-people use guilt to subjugate and oppress. I’ve even used it to get old Wisconsin codgers to pick up a bar tab.
Sometimes a person will say something to the effect of “now you are making me feel guilty.” I like to respond, “sometimes we feel guilty because we are guilty.” I agree that guilt is a useful emotion, but it can also be abused by those in power. Parents, priests, preachers, politicians, and other Pee-people use guilt to subjugate and oppress. I’ve even used it to get old Wisconsin codgers to pick up a bar tab.
Only because I felt sorry for a wandering lawyer in Chicago.
Thanks, Dennis, I appreciated your post. I am prone to guilt, but that’s because I have such high standards of personal behavior. It’s not perfectionism or conceit, it’s more a matter of pride. It stems from a strong desire to be self-aware. Because I grew up in a home with parents who were both quite obviously self-deceived, I developed a compulsive need to observe myself as clearly as possible. Of course, success is a matter of degree, but the habit is fairly ingrained in my character. It has also made me tolerant of others. There is no sleazy emotion that I haven’t witnessed in myself.
Sometimes I use guilt as a form of absolution. I may have behaved poorly, but see how guilty I feel? This assures me that I am a good person.
Thanks, Dennis, I appreciated your post. I am prone to guilt, but that’s because I have such high standards of personal behavior. It’s not perfectionism or conceit, it’s more a matter of pride. It stems from a strong desire to be self-aware. Because I grew up in a home with parents who were both quite obviously self-deceived, I developed a compulsive need to observe myself as clearly as possible. Of course, success is a matter of degree, but the habit is fairly ingrained in my character. It has also made me tolerant of others. There is no sleazy emotion that I haven’t witnessed in myself.
Sometimes I use guilt as a form of absolution. I may have behaved poorly, but see how guilty I feel? This assures me that I am a good person.
I know of no exact measure of “guilt degree,” but some are more prone than others. “Irrational guilt” seems when someone assumes for themselves more responsibility for causing injury to others than is at all evidenced. Oddly enough, that is a form of narcissism when taken too far. You’re right, claims of guilt can be used as a manipulative ploy, but those who do so regularly rarely commit suicide. As a very rough guide, guilt is “rational” when (l) some explicit and mutually agreed on social contract is violated, (2) for insufficient reason, (3) on purpose, and (4) real injury is caused as a result.
As said, apart from neurotic extremes, guilt is a prerequisite for any society.
To clarify: We wish to say that the assessment of the utility of a guilty feeling can be rational, or not as opposed to the emotional sensation itself?
A society dominated by guilt is also one dominated by some authoritarian governance that uses guilt as a powerful social control; that is less likely in democracies and more likely in theocracies.
Hence the concept of original sin? All those Catholics feeling guilty lend themselves to authoritarian governance? You have to hand it to the clever bastards who came up with that. They really knew how to take advantage of human nature.
To clarify: We wish to say that the assessment of the utility of a guilty feeling can be rational, or not as opposed to the emotional sensation itself?
Not the emotion, the conditions under which it arises. Guilt is after all a cognitive interpretation, not an automatic response.
A society dominated by guilt is also one dominated by some authoritarian governance that uses guilt as a powerful social control; that is less likely in democracies and more likely in theocracies.
Hence the concept of original sin? All those Catholics feeling guilty lend themselves to authoritarian governance? You have to hand it to the clever bastards who came up with that. They really knew how to take advantage of human nature.
Stupid they’re not. The RCC has been allied with the rulers, not the ruled, for most of its history.
Dennis: I know of no exact measure of “guilt degree,” but some are more prone than others. “Irrational guilt” seems when someone assumes for themselves more responsibility for causing injury to others than is at all evidenced. Oddly enough, that is a form of narcissism when taken too far. You’re right, claims of guilt can be used as a manipulative ploy, but those who do so regularly rarely commit suicide. As a very rough guide, guilt is “rational” when (l) some explicit and mutually agreed on social contract is violated, (2) for insufficient reason, (3) on purpose, and (4) real injury is caused as a result.
I didn’t mean the guilt was a matter of degree, but being self-aware was a matter of degree.
When I feel guilty, I usually try to assess if the guilt is warranted. About half the time it isn’t, but when it is, it usually reveals something about myself that I wasn’t seeing. Other than it being useful, I don’t get too excited about feeling guilty. I think of it as an alarm, of sorts. It helps me notice what is going on.
Dennis: Not the emotion, the conditions under which it arises. Guilt is after all a cognitive interpretation, not an automatic response.
Dogs look like they are feeling guilty when they do something naughty, but I suppose that is simply an anticipation of punishment. Or is it? Do dogs think? Probably in an elementary way, but not really.
Dennis: I know of no exact measure of “guilt degree,” but some are more prone than others. “Irrational guilt” seems when someone assumes for themselves more responsibility for causing injury to others than is at all evidenced. Oddly enough, that is a form of narcissism when taken too far. You’re right, claims of guilt can be used as a manipulative ploy, but those who do so regularly rarely commit suicide. As a very rough guide, guilt is “rational” when (l) some explicit and mutually agreed on social contract is violated, (2) for insufficient reason, (3) on purpose, and (4) real injury is caused as a result.
I didn’t mean the guilt was a matter of degree, but being self-aware was a matter of degree.
When I feel guilty, I usually try to assess if the guilt is warranted. About half the time it isn’t, but when it is, it usually reveals something about myself that I wasn’t seeing. Other than it being useful, I don’t get too excited about feeling guilty. I think of it as an alarm, of sorts. It helps me notice what is going on.
Makes sense, good way to proceed. Guilt is a matter of degree, from almost none to devastating. Although I risk being called a sexist, women are more prone to guilt than men; passive-dependency is 70/30 female/male, and that syndrome is much more prone to expressing irrational guilt. Or, it can be argued that men are insensitive clods. The only “guilt free” people are very small children, psychopaths and narcissists. And my small dog.
Dennis: Not the emotion, the conditions under which it arises. Guilt is after all a cognitive interpretation, not an automatic response.
Dogs look like they are feeling guilty when they do something naughty, but I suppose that is simply an anticipation of punishment. Or is it? Do dogs think? Probably in an elementary way, but not really.
Not guilt, anticipatory fear. Dogs will respond to doing something that in the past has punished, with fear. So can psychopaths. But guilt as applied to infra-human animals is likely not appropriate. Guilt is after all dependent on a person knowing how someone else will feel, and as much as I’m besotted with dogs, she has no idea how I feel in response to her behavior. At least I’ve no evidence of that. She does respond differently to me vs. my wife, as between 8:00 and 8:15 AM every morning, she wakes up and then harasses me with her paw to get up, never my wife. I have a sexist dog. She ought to feel some guilt, but forget it.
As I’ve understood it, there is a personal/social distinction between guilt and shame, and this shows up in a distinction between guilt-cultures and shame-cultures. In the latter, it’s only getting caught out, or being seen by others to behave in ways not condoned by the society. In the former, social control has been internalized so that a person feels guilty for violating various mores. I recall a comment by Doris Lessing about speaking with a group of Soviet writers, one of whom said they didn’t need censorship by the government because they had developed internal censors.
As I’ve understood it, there is a personal/social distinction between guilt and shame, and this shows up in a distinction between guilt-cultures and shame-cultures. In the latter, it’s only getting caught out, or being seen by others to behave in ways not condoned by the society. In the former, social control has been internalized so that a person feels guilty for violating various mores. I recall a comment by Doris Lessing about speaking with a group of Soviet writers, one of whom said they didn’t need censorship by the government because they had developed internal censors.
Good points. Shame is social function (i.e. you’re caught and publicized), guilt is a personal issue, your behavior violates internalized criteria.
Usually the means to relieve guilt is restitution. This can be public or personal apology or actions that heal the harm done, such as replacing property that was destroyed. I suppose prison is seen as a form of restitution by some, but it is more of a means of punishment which does little for the victims besides letting them know that the criminal is out of society for awhile.
Unresolved feelings of guilt may fester when there is no possible restitution. Murder is an example of a wrong for which full reparation is not possible.
Some religions, such as Christianity, provide restitution through repentance of prayer. This can be a great sense of relief to people for whom full redress is impossible, such as alcoholics who have burned many bridges over the years. Without feeling forgiveness or making things right, some people are stuck in hating themselves and unable to move forward.
I decided in high school that guilt was very useful to inform you that you need to fix something about your behavior—make restitution if called for and possible—and that beyond such point as you’ve dealt with the issue (genuinely, not just thrown a platitude or two at it), guilt is useless and even harmful as anything more than a reminder. That was based largely upon my observations of and interactions with those around me, mostly at the church in which I grew up.
I decided in high school that guilt was very useful to inform you that you need to fix something about your behavior—make restitution if called for and possible—and that beyond such point as you’ve dealt with the issue (genuinely, not just thrown a platitude or two at it), guilt is useless and even harmful as anything more than a reminder. That was based largely upon my observations of and interactions with those around me, mostly at the church in which I grew up.
Guilt is a constraint. Any constraint can be excessive, it’s absence chaotic.
I decided in high school that guilt was very useful to inform you that you need to fix something about your behavior—make restitution if called for and possible—and that beyond such point as you’ve dealt with the issue (genuinely, not just thrown a platitude or two at it), guilt is useless and even harmful as anything more than a reminder. That was based largely upon my observations of and interactions with those around me, mostly at the church in which I grew up.
Guilt is a constraint. Any constraint can be excessive, it’s absent chaotic.
I decided in high school that guilt was very useful to inform you that you need to fix something about your behavior—make restitution if called for and possible—and that beyond such point as you’ve dealt with the issue (genuinely, not just thrown a platitude or two at it), guilt is useless and even harmful as anything more than a reminder. That was based largely upon my observations of and interactions with those around me, mostly at the church in which I grew up.
Guilt is a constraint. Any constraint can be excessive, it’s absent chaotic.
... absent chaotic?
Too cryptic? No guilt, just tantrum throwing children screaming in the sandbox.
I decided in high school that guilt was very useful to inform you that you need to fix something about your behavior—make restitution if called for and possible—and that beyond such point as you’ve dealt with the issue (genuinely, not just thrown a platitude or two at it), guilt is useless and even harmful as anything more than a reminder. That was based largely upon my observations of and interactions with those around me, mostly at the church in which I grew up.
Guilt is a constraint. Any constraint can be excessive, it’s absent chaotic.
... absent chaotic?
Too cryptic? No guilt, just tantrum throwing children screaming in the sandbox.
No guilt equals/amounts to/results in tantrum throwing children screaming in the sandbox?
I decided in high school that guilt was very useful to inform you that you need to fix something about your behavior—make restitution if called for and possible—and that beyond such point as you’ve dealt with the issue (genuinely, not just thrown a platitude or two at it), guilt is useless and even harmful as anything more than a reminder. That was based largely upon my observations of and interactions with those around me, mostly at the church in which I grew up.
Guilt is a constraint. Any constraint can be excessive, it’s absent chaotic.
... absent chaotic?
Too cryptic? No guilt, just tantrum throwing children screaming in the sandbox.
No guilt equals/amounts to/results in tantrum throwing children screaming in the sandbox?
Just gotta make sure I’m not presuming incorrectly ... it’s a strong aversion I have.
But yeah ... probably true, even if it’s all too often overdone and used for control. It’s certainly better than using old school violence at least ... well, maybe anyway ... probably most of the time. It can be pretty nasty though.
I decided in high school that guilt was very useful to inform you that you need to fix something about your behavior—make restitution if called for and possible—and that beyond such point as you’ve dealt with the issue (genuinely, not just thrown a platitude or two at it), guilt is useless and even harmful as anything more than a reminder. That was based largely upon my observations of and interactions with those around me, mostly at the church in which I grew up.
I hardly ever feel guilty (must be a sociopath), had a similar experience. Didn’t like feeling guilty when I was a teen and thought it was stupid to do anything that would lead to feelings I didn’t like.
I hardly ever feel guilty (must be a sociopath), had a similar experience. Didn’t like feeling guilty when I was a teen and thought it was stupid to do anything that would lead to feelings I didn’t like.
Which is what makes it so useful when impulses need to be constrained in a society. That, and of course fear that you’ll get whacked by the other person.
