Project Reason is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. The foundation draws on the talents of prominent and creative thinkers in a wide range of disciplines to encourage critical thinking and erode the influence of dogmatism, superstition, and bigotry in our world.

 
   
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Where Was God??
Posted: 23 January 2012 03:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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The truth is that if there is a god who deserves thanks for the good things, this same god also deserves blame for the bad things. Most believers give a FREE PASS on gods responsibility in correcting evils so they can continue to believe in the myth of a god who loves them.

The way god works is really not that mysterious. God will answer a prayer to have someone inspire you, but not answer a prayer to send you a warning about the next earthquake or tsunami. God will often help you recover from a cold or flue (in about 3 days) but never heal an amputee. And if you swim in a river with alligators, it’s the ‘gators who get to thank god for their meal.

So, if you believe in a god .. just don’t expect real help when you actually need help.

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Posted: 23 January 2012 07:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Unconcious Nature has no motive (reason). Conscience Beings do. Therefore, when something “bad” but incomprehensible happens (no culpability or senseless human culpability), some people find comfort and solace in that a Super Conscious Being (the Made-up Middle-Man/Good Guy Intervener between Man and Nature) is in control and has a “good” motive, however “bad” and incomprehensible the event, even if just to assign culpability and/or merit (real or imagined). Anxiety of separateness relieved ... Gods are born. So, a resultant motive for everything, conscious and non-conscious, “good” and “bad” (reward/punishment).

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Posted: 23 January 2012 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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John, what a power of intellect and depth of wisdom you display above.

If God does not appease the “wants” and “needs” that human beings see as their “rights” and “privileges”, then God is not a good and powerful God but an uncaring and weak God.

This is the depth of “wisdom” you are imparting to the human race on this January day in 2012?

Of course, you could not be thinking as lowly as “man thinks” and not as lofty as “God thinks”.

Of course, you could not be ignorant of the knowledge and understanding that the will (even God’s will) does two things—acts and permits.

Of course, reality (if you were in charge) would have a light without a dark, a good without a bad, a yin without a yang, and on and on.

Of course, creation is not a creation and only a part of reality and only a beginning to our existence, but the end all and be all.

Of course, our sufferings and struggles are not human experiences that can mold us into more profound and better human beings, but meaningless horrors and atrocities.

Listen, oh wise one, to a children’s story:

There was once a man who dug up a large block of iron ore from the ground. This block of iron ore was shaped amazingly like a young sitting child. The man placed this sitting child of iron ore on a fallen tree and looked at it. After a time, he said out loud, “because I am alone and do not have any children of my own, I will bring this child of iron ore home and sit it before my fireplace. And so he did. He even built a beautiful chair for his child of iron ore to sit upon.

After many years, a group of soldiers came by the man’s house and told him that an army of barbarians was approaching, and he should flee into the mountains. He thanked the soldiers for their warning and counsel. And, he fed them before they went off to join their comrades for the coming battle.

The man sat before his fireplace and thought about putting his child of iron ore in the wagon and escaping into the mountains, like the soldiers had told him to do. But this was his home and he wasn’t a coward.

He turned toward his child of iron ore and loudly proclaimed, “No. I will stay and fight!”.

His child of iron ore sat glowing in the light of the fire.

“But what would I fight with? he asked his child of iron ore. “The barbarians have maces and war-hammers. All I have is a pick-axe. What weapon can I use to fight these barbarians?”

The man looked at his glowing child of iron ore, almost expecting a response. His child of iron ore appeared to him for the first time to be alive. His child of iron ore wavered in the glow from the blazing fire before them. His child of iron ore leaned forward towards the blazing fire, then leaned back. Over and over, the man watched this dance.

The man turned and looked into the blazing fire.

Then he looked back at his child of iron ore.

Suddenly, it came to him what he must do. His whole being ached with sorrow and dread. But, despite these feelings, the man courageously sat up, walked over to his child of iron ore, picked it up, and threw it into the fire.

The man then sat back down and looked at his child of iron ore sitting in the fire, until he fell asleep.

The next morning the man woke up and went over to the fireplace. He sifted through the ashes and took out the formless mass of iron that was once his child of iron ore. He then took this formless mass of iron to the blacksmith in town.

The blacksmith looked at the formless mass of iron and asked the man, “This is a good quality iron you have here, what would you have me do with it?”

“Make me a sword,” the man replied, as he placed a bag of coins before the blacksmith. “And inscribe on the blade—child of iron ore.”

The blacksmith agreed. And worked through the day and through the night.

The next day the man went to the blacksmith and was handed a gleaming sword of exceptional quality. He thanked the blacksmith and went off toward the approaching barbarians.

Bravely the man fought for many months. And, the barbarians were then defeated.

The man went back home, battle-weary and battle-scarred. He carefully placed his sword over the fireplace. He made a blazing fire, sat down before his sword, and read the glowing words, child of iron ore. Then he died.

[ Edited: 23 January 2012 09:11 AM by TheBrotherMario ]
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Posted: 23 January 2012 12:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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TheBrotherMario - 23 January 2012 09:05 AM

John, what a power of intellect and depth of wisdom you display above.

If God does not appease the “wants” and “needs” that human beings see as their “rights” and “privileges”, then God is not a good and powerful God but an uncaring and weak God.

This is the depth of “wisdom” you are imparting to the human race on this January day in 2012?

Of course, you could not be thinking as lowly as “man thinks” and not as lofty as “God thinks”.

Of course, you could not be ignorant of the knowledge and understanding that the will (even God’s will) does two things—acts and permits.

Of course, reality (if you were in charge) would have a light without a dark, a good without a bad, a yin without a yang, and on and on.

Of course, creation is not a creation and only a part of reality and only a beginning to our existence, but the end all and be all.

Of course, our sufferings and struggles are not human experiences that can mold us into more profound and better human beings, but meaningless horrors and atrocities.

Listen, oh wise one, to a children’s story:

There was once a man who dug up a large block of iron ore from the ground. This block of iron ore was shaped amazingly like a young sitting child. The man placed this sitting child of iron ore on a fallen tree and looked at it. After a time, he said out loud, “because I am alone and do not have any children of my own, I will bring this child of iron ore home and sit it before my fireplace. And so he did. He even built a beautiful chair for his child of iron ore to sit upon.

After many years, a group of soldiers came by the man’s house and told him that an army of barbarians was approaching, and he should flee into the mountains. He thanked the soldiers for their warning and counsel. And, he fed them before they went off to join their comrades for the coming battle.

The man sat before his fireplace and thought about putting his child of iron ore in the wagon and escaping into the mountains, like the soldiers had told him to do. But this was his home and he wasn’t a coward.

He turned toward his child of iron ore and loudly proclaimed, “No. I will stay and fight!”.

His child of iron ore sat glowing in the light of the fire.

“But what would I fight with? he asked his child of iron ore. “The barbarians have maces and war-hammers. All I have is a pick-axe. What weapon can I use to fight these barbarians?”

The man looked at his glowing child of iron ore, almost expecting a response. His child of iron ore appeared to him for the first time to be alive. His child of iron ore wavered in the glow from the blazing fire before them. His child of iron ore leaned forward towards the blazing fire, then leaned back. Over and over, the man watched this dance.

The man turned and looked into the blazing fire.

Then he looked back at his child of iron ore.

Suddenly, it came to him what he must do. His whole being ached with sorrow and dread. But, despite these feelings, the man courageously sat up, walked over to his child of iron ore, picked it up, and threw it into the fire.

The man then sat back down and looked at his child of iron ore sitting in the fire, until he fell asleep.

The next morning the man woke up and went over to the fireplace. He sifted through the ashes and took out the formless mass of iron that was once his child of iron ore. He then took this formless mass of iron to the blacksmith in town.

The blacksmith looked at the formless mass of iron and asked the man, “This is a good quality iron you have here, what would you have me do with it?”

“Make me a sword,” the man replied, as he placed a bag of coins before the blacksmith. “And inscribe on the blade—child of iron ore.”

The blacksmith agreed. And worked through the day and through the night.

The next day the man went to the blacksmith and was handed a gleaming sword of exceptional quality. He thanked the blacksmith and went off toward the approaching barbarians.

Bravely the man fought for many months. And, the barbarians were then defeated.

The man went back home, battle-weary and battle-scarred. He carefully placed his sword over the fireplace. He made a blazing fire, sat down before his sword, and read the glowing words, child of iron ore. Then he died.

I wish I had been eaten by a crocodile before I reached the end of the story.  The message is clear.  Under god’s rules, children are mere tools.

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Posted: 23 January 2012 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Mike78 - 23 January 2012 12:27 PM

I wish I had been eaten by a crocodile before I reached the end of the story.  The message is clear.  Under god’s rules, children are mere tools.

It would have been less painful I expect.
You learn to gradually skip through the crap. until you realise it’s all crap and just skip the lot.

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When you’re chewing on life’s gristle
Don’t grumble, give a whistle
And this’ll help things turn out for the best…
And…always look on the bright side of life…
Always look on the light side of life.
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Posted: 23 January 2012 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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JohnTaylor=PlayTOE - 23 January 2012 03:40 AM

The truth is that if there is a god who deserves thanks for the good things, this same god also deserves blame for the bad things. Most believers give a FREE PASS on gods responsibility in correcting evils so they can continue to believe in the myth of a god who loves them.

The way god works is really not that mysterious. God will answer a prayer to have someone inspire you, but not answer a prayer to send you a warning about the next earthquake or tsunami. God will often help you recover from a cold or flue (in about 3 days) but never heal an amputee. And if you swim in a river with alligators, it’s the ‘gators who get to thank god for their meal.

So, if you believe in a god .. just don’t expect real help when you actually need help.

I actually happen to agree that the God of justice and love will, at some point, need to reveal why intense suffering is allowed in the world and why children are eaten by animals.  We can speculate about it until then, but there are some promises in Christianity such as “every tear will be wiped away” and “we will know as we are known.” So, faith waits until all is revealed.

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Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. - Some guy named Jesus

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Posted: 23 January 2012 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Who trained the man to sword fight? It’s pretty hard to defeat a horde of barbarians if you don’t know how to wield a sword properly. But good on him for doing the practical thing and taking an available resource to create a weapon. Who cares what shape the iron took when found? Now, my 3rd year metallurgy class was a long time ago, but I also hope that the iron was not pure iron, otherwise it would not make a very good weapon at all. A certain percentage of carbon is required to make steel or wrought iron. Finally, I don’t think that the fire from a fireplace can melt iron (a forge is required). He was better off just bringing the iron child directly to the blacksmith.

Even for an allegory, there are a lot of holes in this story. What was the point of it again? I couldn’t around the technical inaccuracies.

This little story reminds me of the opening scene from “Conan the Barbarian”. Now that was a good bit of metal forging.

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Posted: 23 January 2012 12:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I forgot one detail which irked me as well…assuming that the block of iron is pure, and that it is the same size as an actual child, then it would be extremely heavy. The density of iron is 7.86 grams per cubic centimeter. Assuming that a child is 1 meter tall (3.3 feet), 25 cm wide and 10 cm deep, that would put the volume at 25,000 cm3, so the weight would be approx 197 kilograms, or 430 lbs. How did this guy dig it out of the ground and place it on a fallen tree? How did he get it home (I’m assuming with assistance and a stout wagon)? He must have built a very sturdy chair for his iron child indeed. I am also being conservative with the dimensions. My first estimate put the weight at over 700 lbs, but I didn’t feel like actually calculating weights for the torso, head and limbs separately so I reduced the dimensions that I had originally used.

Oh yeah, it sucks that crocodiles eat children and I agree with the OP.

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Posted: 23 January 2012 12:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Ecurb Noselrub - 23 January 2012 12:43 PM
JohnTaylor=PlayTOE - 23 January 2012 03:40 AM

The truth is that if there is a god who deserves thanks for the good things, this same god also deserves blame for the bad things. Most believers give a FREE PASS on gods responsibility in correcting evils so they can continue to believe in the myth of a god who loves them.

The way god works is really not that mysterious. God will answer a prayer to have someone inspire you, but not answer a prayer to send you a warning about the next earthquake or tsunami. God will often help you recover from a cold or flue (in about 3 days) but never heal an amputee. And if you swim in a river with alligators, it’s the ‘gators who get to thank god for their meal.

So, if you believe in a god .. just don’t expect real help when you actually need help.

I actually happen to agree that the God of justice and love will, at some point, need to reveal why intense suffering is allowed in the world and why children are eaten by animals.  We can speculate about it until then, but there are some promises in Christianity such as “every tear will be wiped away” and “we will know as we are known.” So, faith waits until all is revealed.

Of course, you realize you won’t be holding your breath ... it won’t be until your last one. In the meantime, the original reason is “I shall multiply thy sorrow ...”

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Posted: 23 January 2012 01:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Chaos, your posts show perfectly the superficiality of the atheist mind posing as “knowledge”, not to mention the pride of said mind to recite trivia learned as a replacement of said “knowledge”.

Project Reason is filled with superficial and pride-filled intellects, incapable of profound thoughts. This is what happens when the spirit of God, the giver of all good gifts, is tossed to the curb for the limited intellect, the giver of opinion.

Even the resident theist, Bruce, is cut from this cloth. He is more guilty than all of you. For him to think that humanity will stand up straight before the face of God and demand answers is about the least spiritual thing I ever heard. Your resident theist is nothing but an opinionated old man with a mundane life and a mundane intellect and mundane faith.

My story above was an allegory for every one of us being born nothing but the raw material for doing great things. We become great individuals by going out there and grabbing this greatness, or remaining great when everything stacks against us. Guessing at the personalities and personal lives of you people who claim to be “atheists” and “great thinkers”, I would have to say that I can fully understand why the likes of you people either read the story above and got nothing from it, skipped most of it, or only thought about the scientific details of it. The ignoring of it by Bruce, and his subsequent idiotic questioning of God, was the worse response of all.

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Posted: 23 January 2012 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Bruce,

I trust you’re properly put in your place?

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There is my truth.  There is your truth.  There is the real truth.  Neither of us can claim that third. Maybe if we talk, we’ll both get closer.

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Posted: 23 January 2012 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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TheBrotherMario - 23 January 2012 01:24 PM

Even the resident theist, Bruce, is cut from this cloth. He is more guilty than all of you. For him to think that humanity will stand up straight before the face of God and demand answers is about the least spiritual thing I ever heard. Your resident theist is nothing but an opinionated old man with a mundane life and a mundane intellect and mundane faith.

Don’t get your panties in a wad, Mario. God will reveal his intentions without our demand because he has promised that we will know as we are also known. Since you spend more time on this forum now than I do, I think you have become the resident theist and your life is even more mundane than mine.

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Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. - Some guy named Jesus

Ecurb Noselrub - 11th Century Tejas monk

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Posted: 23 January 2012 01:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Don’t get your panties in a wad, Mario. God will reveal his intentions without our demand because he has promised that we will know as we are also known. Since you spend more time on this forum now than I do, I think you have become the resident theist and your life is even more mundane than mine.

But less significant.  I think we are enabling a crippled person.

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There is my truth.  There is your truth.  There is the real truth.  Neither of us can claim that third. Maybe if we talk, we’ll both get closer.

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Posted: 23 January 2012 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Dennis, your greatest talent is writing the exact opposite of what is true.

You are a blatant liar and phony in every post you write about me. You do not in the least read my posts with a complete lack of interest or with the opinion that they are insignificant. Not because you are ingenious enough to understand my posts, but simply out of the quality of them.

Your posts are 100% retaliatory against me for putting your insignificant intellect on display for all to see. You simply cannot believe that all the readings and opinionated nonsense you have accumulated over the years has made you anything but “brilliant”.

One day you will hang that big head of yours in shame.

Until then, at least have a modicum of honesty…and a little modesty, for you keep hanging your wrinkled ass out every-time you pin false labels on me to ease your hurt pride. It is constant, therefore, psychologically speaking, has become neurotic. You’re not a very astute “doctor” of psychology when it comes to your own personality.

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Posted: 23 January 2012 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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BM, would you sacrifice your own child to a hungry crocodile if your god told you to?


Ron

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