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Burt: Wouldn’t part of the considerations relate to whether one believed that although God is always watching, God is also merciful and will forgive? Especially if one can go to confession?
I don’t know that much about Catholicism, but I’m pretty sure that sinning because you know you will be forgiven is a very serious sin in itself, so I don’t think Catholics would consciously do it. But unconsciously….I think you may be right. Same holds true for Protestant denominations, though again, I think it is a subconscious expectation.
However, altruism is different than sinning and involves a sacrifice of some kind, usually time, money, or inconvenience. I think religious people do it because they want to appear “good” to themselves, their neighbors, but also to God. They also may feel sympathy for the person they are helping, but I’m not sure if that is the major factor. I used to anonymously send money to needy people I knew in the mail. No one knew I did it…which increased my “virtue”, making me even more self-satisfied, There was also delight in imagining the recipient opening the mail and finding money. But….truth be told, I also did it to please my spiritual Daddy.
If I had surplus money, I still might be inclined to do it because it feels so good and because I still like to think of myself as virtuous.. Alas, these days, because of the economy, I keep hoping someone will send ME money in the mail. Does anyone need to know my home address?
I discovered an 1856 French 5 centime piece in an old penny collection. Pretty worn. Checked Google and it’s worth about two bucks on the open market. Would that do?
Wouldn’t part of the considerations relate to whether one believed that although God is always watching, God is also merciful and will forgive? Especially if one can go to confession?
On the flip side of that coin, there’s the God is always providing opportunities, and in many cases the sense of privilege and entitlement. It’s okay to lie if it wins souls, because that’s the ultimate goal after all (etc). Religious faith is a shortcut that by-passes responsibility. That’s why we see it manifest mainly in the fundagelical type franchises, and all but absent in many, likely most liberal Episcopalian franchises.
GAD: More projection, they are Catholics they wouldn’t do that….......
I am not projecting. Sinning with the expectation of being forgiven is considered a mortal sin, as opposed to a venial sin, which is considered less grievous. If you deliberately commit a sin, you are in big trouble.
GAD: More projection, they are Catholics they wouldn’t do that….......
I am not projecting. Sinning with the expectation of being forgiven is considered a mortal sin, as opposed to a venial sin, which is considered less grievous. If you deliberately commit a sin, you are in big trouble.
Atheists Are Less “Altruistic” Than Theists”
“But….truth be told, I also did it to please my spiritual Daddy.”
Did you notice the quotation marks around the word “Altruistic”? I put them there so people would not assume that I thought that theists were truly more altruistic than atheists. We’re talking about behavior. The study demonstrates that believers behave more altruistically for a variety of reasons, having nothing to do with the reality of God or inate and/or learned virtue. It’s all about being “watched”, and how that affects altruistic behavior.
By using the term “Spiritual Daddy”, I was mocking myself, but also reinforcing the conclusions of the study. Others on the thread said it wasn’t true for them,...they claim they behaved more altruistically after they became atheists. I have no reason to doubt their word, but I would also point out that posters here are more intellectually and philosophically inclined than the norm. I’m not sure it would hold true for the general population.
Do you see how resistant you are to admitting ANYTHING positive about theism? Talk about biased thinking…...
BURT: I discovered an 1856 French 5 centime piece in an old penny collection. Pretty worn. Checked Google and it’s worth about two bucks on the open market. Would that do?
Sure. Just wrap it up in a hundred dollar bill, okay?
Atheists Are Less “Altruistic” Than Theists”
“But….truth be told, I also did it to please my spiritual Daddy.”
Did you notice the quotation marks around the word “Altruistic”? I put them there so people would not assume that I thought that theists were truly more altruistic than atheists. We’re talking about behavior. The study demonstrates that believers behave more altruistically for a variety of reasons, having nothing to do with the reality of God or inate and/or learned virtue. It’s all about being “watched”, and how that affects altruistic behavior.
By using the term “Spiritual Daddy”, I was mocking myself, but also reinforcing the conclusions of the study. Others on the thread said it wasn’t true for them,...they claim they behaved more altruistically after they became atheists. I have no reason to doubt their word, but I would also point out that posters here are more intellectually and philosophically inclined than the norm. I’m not sure it would hold true for the general population.
Do you see how resistant you are to admitting ANYTHING positive about theism? Talk about biased thinking…...
Do you see how much energy you spend trying to justify something positive about lies, self deception and magic?
Once a person hears the message that life is eternal, and their thoughts and actions are not simply a moment in time, that person has received the message.
Only if a person put their hands over their ears and yelled loudly when this message was told to them can this person claim to be acting good purely for “personal reasons”. No such person exists.
In the same way, there is no such thing as a “pure theist”.
No believer in God does good things because they are following orders to do so.
The believer is just as free as the atheist, who has heard the message, to do whatever they want.
The real difference between the two is that many theists are reminded of what is “good” routinely, do “good” purposefully, and learn more “good” things to do.
If the quote from the book Philokalia, that (I paraphrase) “There are three giants stomping around inside us messing things up: forgetfulness, laziness, and ignorance”, is true, then the theist is living a more powering life than the atheist by renewing themselves every week, taking deliberate actions to do good, and regularly reading a book of instruction on doing good.
(Of course, a person who sleeps in on Sunday, does good when they feel like it, and has found “reasons” to dismiss any instruction from any “Bible”, would disagree.)
So, in answer to saralynn’s question: Yes, atheists are less altruistic because they have welcomed these giants into their lives with open arms, while theists fight them off in real and powerful ways.
Atheists Are Less “Altruistic” Than Theists”
“But….truth be told, I also did it to please my spiritual Daddy.”
Did you notice the quotation marks around the word “Altruistic”? I put them there so people would not assume that I thought that theists were truly more altruistic than atheists. We’re talking about behavior. The study demonstrates that believers behave more altruistically for a variety of reasons, having nothing to do with the reality of God or inate and/or learned virtue. It’s all about being “watched”, and how that affects altruistic behavior.
The term “altruistic” requires a specific motivational component, and you are right to suggest thusly that such apparent altruistic behavior is only really altruistic if we would at the same time say that a child performing the same actions out of concern for how their parent will judge their behavior is altruistic. And even then, do we really need (as Harris has suggested) bad reasons to do good things? Would not any potential benefit of said “altruistic” behavior be more than outweighed by the influence of the unabashedly arbitrary epistemology encouraged by religious faith? Especially as there are extremely compelling secular justifications for engaging in reciprocal altruism (e.g. Prisoner’s dilemma)?
If the quote from the book Philokalia, that (I paraphrase) “There are three giants stomping around inside us messing things up: forgetfulness, laziness, and ignorance”, is true, then the theist is living a more powering life than the atheist by renewing themselves every week, taking deliberate actions to do good, and regularly reading a book of instruction on doing good.
(Of course, a person who sleeps in on Sunday, does good when they feel like it, and has found “reasons” to dismiss any instruction from any “Bible”, would disagree.)
So, in answer to saralynn’s question: Yes, atheists are less altruistic because they have welcomed these giants into their lives with open arms, while theists fight them off in real and powerful ways.
Theists fight ignorance and forgetfulness? That’s news to me… They seem to have the most selective memories of all—considering they still see a benefit to a faith-centered life despite the multitude of unnecessary pain and hardship it causes; and as for ignorance, theists have mastered that domain pretty thoroughly!! Atheists have no dogma to prevent them from being informed on a given topic—they rely on evidence and objectivity as much as possible, and strive to recognize their biases (that is often how we arrive at atheism in the first place!). The poor theists have to avoid letting certain information into their conscious mind to avoid confronting the immense contradictions of their beliefs! I honestly don’t know how they manage to keep themselves in the dark so thoroughly.
What exactly, in your mind, do theists do to combat ignorance and forgetfulness? Or are you simply referring to ignorance and forgetfulness of “God”?
And, you are imaging a believer in God that fits into your limited view. Believers in God are as varied as atheists, just with more “reasons” to overcome their self-centeredness.
The fact that atheists across the board belittle religion, even knowing how much good it is doing in the world on this very day, makes the atheist a dubious person prone to intellectual dishonesty. And the fact that atheists charge the believer with being such a person, and praise themselves for being better than such a person, makes the atheist a bullshit artist.
And, you are imaging a believer in God that fits into your limited view. Believers in God are as varied as atheists, just with more “reasons” to overcome their self-centeredness.
The fact that atheists across the board belittle religion, even knowing how much good it is doing in the world on this very day, makes the atheist a dubious person prone to intellectual dishonesty. And the fact that atheists charge the believer with being such a person, and praise themselves for being better than such a person, makes the atheist a bullshit artist.
Any good done is not made better or worse by the beliefs of the agent. While some “believers” may do good, religion does not.
What exactly, in your mind, do theists do to combat ignorance and forgetfulness? Or are you simply referring to ignorance and forgetfulness of “God”?
Answering for Mario, I would say that they engage in devotional reading, attend services, pray, and perform the nightly ritual of “Examination of Conscience”, at which time they review their daily events and observe the times in which they strayed from the path of righteousness. They ask themselves…“When did I come closest to reflecting God’s image and when did I act like an asshole?” Then they repent and ask for forgiveness. These rituals are useful because they are confronted with their own recurring character flaws, which makes them more aware of them. Also, when a similar situation arises again, they are less likely to make the same mistake.
I really like the whole “examination of conscience” concept. I think we should all make a daily ritual of evaluating our behavior in terms of our ideals and values. That’s why atheists are at a disadvantage. They don’t have traditions such as these. However, one thing most atheists have as opposed to theists is a reverence for truth, objectivity and a respect for reason, which can be very useful when assessing one’s own behavior. I may be wrong, but I think atheists might be less able to blatantly delude themselves. Not sure though, as this is a universal tendency in human beings, and theists, too, are warned to be vigilent. Atheists may simply outwit themselves more cleverly than theists.
On the other hand, as Skeptic pointed out, theists also are more likely to be burdened by guilt, repression, and denial, which are tendencies that can interfere with their ability to see themselves clearly.
Also, there is a vast difference between truly devout theists and those that are not. I’ve been exposed to many different kinds of Christian Churches in my life, and I estimate that only about 5% -10% of the people in the various congregations are devoted to Christ in the sense of radically committing their lives to him. These are the people who are pray in solitude and are inclined to examine their own behavior. The rest are there for a variety of reasons ranging from social motivations to fear of Hell to habit.
