Dennis Campbell - 19 January 2012 11:06 AM

MARTIN UK - 19 January 2012 11:00 AM

Dennis Campbell - 19 January 2012 10:29 AM

Today you could sue them for abuse.  But yes, that’s exactly the sort of thing I’m thinking of, although could be far less of a shock.  The way I think, at least partially, is that there are these bins that get filled with specific sorts of experiences, both positive and negative.  At some point some possibly very minor thing is the final straw and the bin tips over.  That fixates attention on defense mechanisms to keep it together and those mechanisms become a filter through which all other experiences are interpreted (simplistically, ignoring the interplay with defenses around all the other bins and their interactions).

It is likely that my disposition to trust others absent good evidence is diminished.

I’m not surprised!

Did you get thrown in a lake to help teach you to swim Dennis?

Not quite, but my mother enrolled me in an intermediate swimming class when I could not swim stroke.  Remember literally standing on my head underwater looking at people’s legs around me; woke up on the deck with water coming out of me.  Someone must’ve pulled me out.

Sounds like the same school of hard knocks that I attended.
Don’t feel I’m any worse for it, but who can tell.

Dennis Campbell - 19 January 2012 11:06 AM

MARTIN UK - 19 January 2012 11:00 AM

Dennis Campbell - 19 January 2012 10:29 AM

Today you could sue them for abuse.  But yes, that’s exactly the sort of thing I’m thinking of, although could be far less of a shock.  The way I think, at least partially, is that there are these bins that get filled with specific sorts of experiences, both positive and negative.  At some point some possibly very minor thing is the final straw and the bin tips over.  That fixates attention on defense mechanisms to keep it together and those mechanisms become a filter through which all other experiences are interpreted (simplistically, ignoring the interplay with defenses around all the other bins and their interactions).

It is likely that my disposition to trust others absent good evidence is diminished.

I’m not surprised!

Did you get thrown in a lake to help teach you to swim Dennis?

Not quite, but my mother enrolled me in an intermediate swimming class when I could not swim stroke.  Remember literally standing on my head underwater looking at people’s legs around me; woke up on the deck with water coming out of me.  Someone must’ve pulled me out.

Wow, think of all the dough you could collect suing your parents today.  In our day we just had to put up with it, and now that we’re old codgers we can bitch about how easy kids have it today.  My first 3 years were being totally spoiled and over protected, was during the war and all the men were away.  At start I was only child, only grandchild, only great grandchild, and only nephew with lots of women around me.  But on the dark side, I picked up lots of their fears, not as any specific fear but as a generalized background.  I dream about lying on a beach in Tahiti surrounded by buxom babes in scant bikinis who will cater to my every whim, but that might just be part of the male territory.

My father died 3/3/09 at 94, but for many years prior to that he’d abjectly apologized for the field experience, while my mother always defended that action.  She may still be alive, but I’ve had virtually no contact with her for 30 years; nor has my brother.  Everyone has some formative experiences, many far more abusive or traumatic than mine; the extent to which these remembered experiences in fact have a lasting impact is purely conjectural.  Regardless, we all end up around puberty having pretty much formed personalities, which change very little from then on.  Rather than blame some parent or events, all we can do is assess, as much as possible, what we are in terms of personalities, and take advantage of some “strengths” and avoid areas of less advantage in particular situations.  Neither apology nor blame makes any sense.

Dennis Campbell - 19 January 2012 01:30 PM

My father died 3/3/09 at 94, but for many years prior to that he’d abjectly apologized for the field experience, while my mother always defended that action.  She may still be alive, but I’ve had virtually no contact with her for 30 years; nor has my brother.  Everyone has some formative experiences, many far more abusive or traumatic than mine; the extent to which these remembered experiences in fact have a lasting impact is purely conjectural.  Regardless, we all end up around puberty having pretty much formed personalities, which change very little from then on.  Rather than blame some parent or events, all we can do is assess, as much as possible, what we are in terms of personalities, and take advantage of some “strengths” and avoid areas of less advantage in particular situations.  Neither apology nor blame makes any sense.

Totally agree that neither apology nor blame makes any sense, but what does make sense to me is, to the extent possible, identification of specific experiences (however insignificant they may be) that had formative effect.  That’s part of learning to manage ones mental and emotional states; learning to disregard negative or destructive impulses, feelings, and thoughts.

burt - 19 January 2012 03:17 PM

Dennis Campbell - 19 January 2012 01:30 PM

My father died 3/3/09 at 94, but for many years prior to that he’d abjectly apologized for the field experience, while my mother always defended that action.  She may still be alive, but I’ve had virtually no contact with her for 30 years; nor has my brother.  Everyone has some formative experiences, many far more abusive or traumatic than mine; the extent to which these remembered experiences in fact have a lasting impact is purely conjectural.  Regardless, we all end up around puberty having pretty much formed personalities, which change very little from then on.  Rather than blame some parent or events, all we can do is assess, as much as possible, what we are in terms of personalities, and take advantage of some “strengths” and avoid areas of less advantage in particular situations.  Neither apology nor blame makes any sense.

Totally agree that neither apology nor blame makes any sense, but what does make sense to me is, to the extent possible, identification of specific experiences (however insignificant they may be) that had formative effect.  That’s part of learning to manage ones mental and emotional states; learning to disregard negative or destructive impulses, feelings, and thoughts.

What is difficult is to get to the point where bitterness and blame for actions having been committed against oneself by parents or others, is negated.  Not forgotten nor necessarily forgiven, but negated.  At some ill-defined point, an adult has to adopt themselves as the primary agent of what they do or decide, and not subscribe those actions to the influence of others.  That negation does not mean one ignore the facts that someone else, parent or otherwise, acted in a manner quite destructive to oneself or others, and that judgement can and should be sometimes very much a condemnation.  I can recognize a narcissistic person, such as my mother, but not seek to visit upon her some injury, while never also ignoring her personality.

I think that’s right, Dennis. Those who can stop blaming and move on and take responsibility for their own well-being are the ones who get to lead fulfilling lives no matter what trauma they sufferred. It does not mean we forget or even forgive. We just stop being consumed by anger and other destructive emotions - we stop drinking that cup of poison that belongs to the perpetrator rather than us. I’ve seen this in my own very large family. Some have moved on. Others wallow in anger, guilt and blame - particularly those that have remained theists. They think god will get revenge for them. Sad.

Others wallow in anger, guilt and blame - particularly those that have remained theists. They think god will get revenge for them. Sad.

Not just theists.  That’s a common human reaction.  Suggest you consider that theism is an insufficient target.

No, Dennis, I wasn’t saying theism was a sufficient condition for this sort of thing to happen. I was saying merely that in my own family the theists seem to be the ones who have not progressed. It’s about taking responsibility for one’s life.  It seems that it has been easier to not take responsibility for those im my family who still rely on theism to give theri life maening. That’s all. Purely anecdotal. Not saying it’s universal.

Right, Dennis, Rob.  I don’t think a person can really start developing spiritually (in the either the philosophical or religious sense) until they have pacified their past.

burt - 19 January 2012 07:54 PM

Right, Dennis, Rob.  I don’t think a person can really start developing spiritually (in the either the philosophical or religious sense) until they have pacified their past.

Good way to put it.  For reasons not clear to me some people seem to define themselves by reference to their past, often traumatic experiences, others less so and more toward their anticipated future; others almost a moment by moment definition.

Dennis Campbell - 20 January 2012 07:23 AM

burt - 19 January 2012 07:54 PM

Right, Dennis, Rob.  I don’t think a person can really start developing spiritually (in the either the philosophical or religious sense) until they have pacified their past.

Good way to put it.  For reasons not clear to me some people seem to define themselves by reference to their past, often traumatic experiences, others less so and more toward their anticipated future; others almost a moment by moment definition.

When it’s toward the future is that as a compensation for the past?  When moment by moment does that relate to trying to maintain some sort of social image?  Just anecdotal observations, but it seems that some people also define themselves by what they do (my wife use to facilitate retirement planning seminars and that was one of the issues that came up: “If I’m not manager of the bank, who am I?”) and some by the image they try to present.

burt - 20 January 2012 07:59 AM

Dennis Campbell - 20 January 2012 07:23 AM

burt - 19 January 2012 07:54 PM

Right, Dennis, Rob.  I don’t think a person can really start developing spiritually (in the either the philosophical or religious sense) until they have pacified their past.

Good way to put it.  For reasons not clear to me some people seem to define themselves by reference to their past, often traumatic experiences, others less so and more toward their anticipated future; others almost a moment by moment definition.

When it’s toward the future is that as a compensation for the past?  When moment by moment does that relate to trying to maintain some sort of social image?  Just anecdotal observations, but it seems that some people also define themselves by what they do (my wife use to facilitate retirement planning seminars and that was one of the issues that came up: “If I’m not manager of the bank, who am I?”) and some by the image they try to present.

Many men define themselves by their job or occupation, and when they retire they experience more anxiety than those who did not do so as much.  Women, traditionally, define themselves more by their family from which they do not retire.  That may be changing somewhat.

Dennis Campbell - 20 January 2012 08:05 AM

burt - 20 January 2012 07:59 AM

Dennis Campbell - 20 January 2012 07:23 AM

burt - 19 January 2012 07:54 PM

Right, Dennis, Rob.  I don’t think a person can really start developing spiritually (in the either the philosophical or religious sense) until they have pacified their past.

Good way to put it.  For reasons not clear to me some people seem to define themselves by reference to their past, often traumatic experiences, others less so and more toward their anticipated future; others almost a moment by moment definition.

When it’s toward the future is that as a compensation for the past?  When moment by moment does that relate to trying to maintain some sort of social image?  Just anecdotal observations, but it seems that some people also define themselves by what they do (my wife use to facilitate retirement planning seminars and that was one of the issues that came up: “If I’m not manager of the bank, who am I?”) and some by the image they try to present.

Many men define themselves by their job or occupation, and when they retire they experience more anxiety than those who did not do so as much.  Women, traditionally, define themselves more by their family from which they do not retire.  That may be changing somewhat.

I have a manager who finds he must constantly state, “I am the Manager!”, as if he must convince everyone and himself that this is who he is. He has never been a very confident guy, he failed as a Police Officer then got moved from child services, I can imagine that when he was in the police he would have been the same, defining himself by his position.
I think he is an extreme example but maybe it is important to us all at differing degrees.

I have a manager who finds he must constantly state, “I am the Manager!”, as if he must convince everyone and himself that this is who he is. He has never been a very confident guy, he failed as a Police Officer then got moved from child services, I can imagine that when he was in the police he would have been the same, defining himself by his position.
I think he is an extreme example but maybe it is important to us all at differing degrees.

Your manager may have a quite difficult time when he is no longer one.

Dennis Campbell - 20 January 2012 09:09 AM

I have a manager who finds he must constantly state, “I am the Manager!”, as if he must convince everyone and himself that this is who he is. He has never been a very confident guy, he failed as a Police Officer then got moved from child services, I can imagine that when he was in the police he would have been the same, defining himself by his position.
I think he is an extreme example but maybe it is important to us all at differing degrees.

Your manager may have a quite difficult time when he is no longer one.

He ought to learn to manage himself, then he’d always have a project to work on.

burt - 20 January 2012 09:29 AM

Dennis Campbell - 20 January 2012 09:09 AM

I have a manager who finds he must constantly state, “I am the Manager!”, as if he must convince everyone and himself that this is who he is. He has never been a very confident guy, he failed as a Police Officer then got moved from child services, I can imagine that when he was in the police he would have been the same, defining himself by his position.
I think he is an extreme example but maybe it is important to us all at differing degrees.

Your manager may have a quite difficult time when he is no longer one.

He ought to learn to manage himself, then he’d always have a project to work on.

I agree with you both, he is nearing retirement soon, it’s as if he has gone into self destruct mode, upsetting folk and failing to complete care plans and risk assesments, it’s like he sees the end of his job as “the” end and has given up.

MARTIN UK - 20 January 2012 09:34 AM

burt - 20 January 2012 09:29 AM

Dennis Campbell - 20 January 2012 09:09 AM

I have a manager who finds he must constantly state, “I am the Manager!”, as if he must convince everyone and himself that this is who he is. He has never been a very confident guy, he failed as a Police Officer then got moved from child services, I can imagine that when he was in the police he would have been the same, defining himself by his position.
I think he is an extreme example but maybe it is important to us all at differing degrees.

Your manager may have a quite difficult time when he is no longer one.

He ought to learn to manage himself, then he’d always have a project to work on.

I agree with you both, he is nearing retirement soon, it’s as if he has gone into self destruct mode, upsetting folk and failing to complete care plans and risk assesments, it’s like he sees the end of his job as “the” end and has given up.

I’ll be that before such a collapse into nihilism he was into trying out all sorts of new theories of how to get things done, only to abandon them a week later.

burt - 23 January 2012 09:20 PM

MARTIN UK - 20 January 2012 09:34 AM

burt - 20 January 2012 09:29 AM

Dennis Campbell - 20 January 2012 09:09 AM

I have a manager who finds he must constantly state, “I am the Manager!”, as if he must convince everyone and himself that this is who he is. He has never been a very confident guy, he failed as a Police Officer then got moved from child services, I can imagine that when he was in the police he would have been the same, defining himself by his position.
I think he is an extreme example but maybe it is important to us all at differing degrees.

Your manager may have a quite difficult time when he is no longer one.

He ought to learn to manage himself, then he’d always have a project to work on.

I agree with you both, he is nearing retirement soon, it’s as if he has gone into self destruct mode, upsetting folk and failing to complete care plans and risk assesments, it’s like he sees the end of his job as “the” end and has given up.

I’ll be that before such a collapse into nihilism he was into trying out all sorts of new theories of how to get things done, only to abandon them a week later.

I feel he is taking his last gasps Burt, he accused me of undermining him during an audit this week, while he told the auditors that they “would do better coming back tomorrow” when he could “prepare for them better answers”, bearing in mind these audits arrive on speck.

In the case of my Father, who was a Child Protection Officer, he concentrated his energy into his music after retirement, he is now working every night in clubs across the UK, I think it is common place that folk need something to define them in this way.

MARTIN UK - 24 January 2012 12:15 AM

burt - 23 January 2012 09:20 PM

MARTIN UK - 20 January 2012 09:34 AM

burt - 20 January 2012 09:29 AM

Dennis Campbell - 20 January 2012 09:09 AM

I have a manager who finds he must constantly state, “I am the Manager!”, as if he must convince everyone and himself that this is who he is. He has never been a very confident guy, he failed as a Police Officer then got moved from child services, I can imagine that when he was in the police he would have been the same, defining himself by his position.
I think he is an extreme example but maybe it is important to us all at differing degrees.

Your manager may have a quite difficult time when he is no longer one.

He ought to learn to manage himself, then he’d always have a project to work on.

I agree with you both, he is nearing retirement soon, it’s as if he has gone into self destruct mode, upsetting folk and failing to complete care plans and risk assesments, it’s like he sees the end of his job as “the” end and has given up.

I’ll be that before such a collapse into nihilism he was into trying out all sorts of new theories of how to get things done, only to abandon them a week later.

I feel he is taking his last gasps Burt, he accused me of undermining him during an audit this week, while he told the auditors that they “would do better coming back tomorrow” when he could “prepare for them better answers”, bearing in mind these audits arrive on speck.

In the case of my Father, who was a Child Protection Officer, he concentrated his energy into his music after retirement, he is now working every night in clubs across the UK, I think it is common place that folk need something to define them in this way.

Until a few years ago my wife facilitated “retirement lifestyle” workshops.  She would have loved your father as an excellent example.  On the other hand, she collected a number of retirement horror stories about people who hadn’t given post-retirement life a thought until it was upon them; or, had not thought about it carefully (There was a banker who was going to buy a boat and sail around the world.  At retirement he bought his boat, very expensive, and only then discovered that his wife hated sailing, got violently sea sick, and gave him the ultimatum of her or the boat.)

I’ve decided not to try and write a book. I got to nine pages and started struggling. Instead I’m going to take some of what I’ve written and try to turn it into a business model. I’ve written about how there are certain careers and professions that are more suitable to certain types in my theory. I’ve also written about how there are individual traits that each type has that would make them suitable for certain types of jobs. So I’m thinking I could submit this along with a questionnaire that can be used to determine careers to employment agencies or Human Resource departments to help people with career assessments and career choices. I’m going to edit the questionnaire I already came up with so it can be used for determining careers.

Also I’ve changed the title of my theory to my last name: Shorter Typology http://kimanishorter.tripod.com/

Kimani - 01 April 2012 07:36 AM

I’ve decided not to try and write a book. I got to nine pages and started struggling. Instead I’m going to take some of what I’ve written and try to turn it into a business model. I’ve written about how there are certain careers and professions that are more suitable to certain types in my theory. I’ve also written about how there are individual traits that each type has that would make them suitable for certain types of jobs. So I’m thinking I could submit this along with a questionnaire that can be used to determine careers to employment agencies or Human Resource departments to help people with career assessments and career choices. I’m going to edit the questionnaire I already came up with so it can be used for determining careers.

Also I’ve changed the title of my theory to my last name: Shorter Typology http://kimanishorter.tripod.com/

Best of luck. I think you’d be better off writing the book, because you’re essentially going to have to write it in the form of proposals and business plans and whatnot if you’re going to pitch it. Maybe you could combine the two? That would be interesting (at least for me) to see how you pitch it, and to whom, and their response(s). I’m just sayin’.

This is what I’ve written so far minus the actual questionnaire

  I found a correlation between Carl Jung’s theory of archetypes and disorders. My theory explores metaphysics and modern psychology. It reconfigures some of Carl Jung’s theory of archetypes and some of the types found on the DSM Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) as well a type not found on the DSM into something new.

  Archetypes are primal symbols of people. These same archetypes are building blocks in determining personalities. Many individual archetypes are found in people at the same time / over a lifetime. These archetypes separately show fragments of people’s unconscious minds. These archetypes combined display a large part or portion of the unconscious mind. When organized into groups of two they spell out psychological conditions. What seems random at first becomes very familiar when placed in a different context.

  There are six archetypes in this equation. Each archetype represents a distinctive trait. The Child relies upon others. The Hero is troubled and always has to overcome some problems or obstacles. The Mother is empathetic and comforting. The Shadow is a symbol of apathy. The Trickster lacks morals and standards. The Wise Old Man is insightful.

  The six archetypes are divided into three sets. There are two archetypes in each set. The combination of the two archetypes in each set results in a model for psychological conditions. What makes people unique and special is determined by what archetypes are found in them the most.

  My theory believes that certain specific archetypes can be applied to the disorder or condition that you have. I’ve taken six of Carl Jung’s archetypes and paired each two of them together. The two archetypes are then matched to several disorders because of their equivalency. The end result is three distinct types. Each type is defined by two archetypes.

  The insightful nature of the Wise Old Man archetype and the troubled nature of the Hero archetype are equivalent to the brilliant but withdrawn nature of people with Asperger’s and Bipolar Disorder. The devoted nature of the Mother archetype and the vulnerable nature of the Child archetype are equivalent to the nurturing dependent nature of people with Codependency Personality Disorder, Dependent Personality Disorder and Avoidant Personality Disorder. The apathetic nature of the Shadow archetype and the sneaky nature of the The Trickster archetype are equivalent to the apathetic manipulative nature of people with Narcissistic Personality disorder, Borderline personality disorder, Histrionic personality disorder and Sociopathy.

  There are eleven psychological conditions / types used in this concept. They are Asperger’s Syndrome, Bipolar 1, Bipolar 2, Cyclothymia, Avoidant, Codependency, Dependent, Borderline, Histrionic, Narcissism, and Sociopathy. The similar elements of these conditions unify them. They form an entity. These entities are used to define an individual. A person will gravitate towards one of these three entities much more than any of the others.

The Designer The Professional The Charmer

The Designer

Archetypes:
The Hero - troubled
The Wise Old Man - profound
Tendencies: withdrawn, creative / insightful
Dominant Capabilities: composing, equating, calculating
Conditions: Asperger’s Syndrome, Bipolar Spectrum

The Professional

Archetypes:
The Child - dependency, vulnerable
The Mother - nurturing, devoted
Tendencies: generosity, dedication, sacrifice, humility
Dominant Capabilities: consoling, comforting, compromising
Conditions: Avoidant, Codependency, Dependent

The Charmer

Archetypes:
The Shadow - apathy
The Trickster - devious, sneaky
Tendencies: impulsive, manipulative, hateful
Dominant Capabilities: enticing, seducing, tempting, exploiting
Conditions: Borderline, Histrionic, Narcissism, Sociopathy

  Archetypes are aspects of someone’s personality. They are character traits. 
The part of the mind that archetypes make up is called the subconscious. It is the area of the psyche where memories and emotions that have been repressed exist. In the subconscious mind desires and thoughts that are socially unacceptable or painful and uncomfortable have been submerged. The subconscious is also known as the unconscious mind. In the subconscious or unconscious mind emotions exist that you may not even be aware of. That is another way of looking at these archetypes.

  I’m trying to build or expand upon Carl Jung’s initial concept of archetypes. I’m personalizing them by applying them to specific disorders. I have identified a pattern that exists with these archetypes. It takes two of them to identify a psychological disorder. You can match two archetypes to several disorders.

  My theory believes that not all of Carl Jung’s archetypes are created equally. There are some archetypes that are much more significant and important than others. The archetypes that I am using in my theory account for those people that are capable of being productive members of society despite their disorders. As a result these archetypes are essential in understanding what drives society.

  Based on certain archetypes people have different capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses. Learning about which archetypes a person displays will help them better understand these capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses and they can apply that information to social, personal, and professional aspects of their lives.

  The archetypes that make up the Professional type are very different from the archetypes that make up the Charmer types. As a result these two types are almost opposites. The Mother is a symbol of empathy and compassion while the Shadow is a very dark archetype exhibiting apathy and hatred. The Child is an archetype that exhibits innocence while the Trickster archetype is far from innocent.

  In many ways the Wise Old Man archetype is the Hero archetype towards the end of his life. The Hero eventually overcomes the problems and obstacles that it faces and learns many things during it’s journey becoming a expert. The Hero has cultivated so much wisdom through it’s battles and adventures that it becomes the Wise Old Man. The Designer type encompasses the darkness of the hero and the illumination of the Wise Old Man. The Designer is a troubled type but at the same time a brilliant type.

  “To me, Charmer is the interpersonal people type: The Professional is the administrator type. The Designer is the creative type. As a sustainable model for society the prime factors being; People, Process, and Change.”

  Everyone has a different role or function in society based on their disposition. My theory of personality helps highlight what people’s different roles or functions is society are. Some people are better at interpersonal skills. Others excel at being innovative or creative. And some are quite skilled at being caretakers sand supporters.

  The Professional type is more of a provider. They give care and support to others. They don’t dominate relationships like the Charmer type. The Charmer type is more of a leader. He/she captivates people with their outgoing personality. People are drawn towards Charmer types. They have a lot of followers always leading the way. The Designer is neither a big follower or a big leader. The Designer type isn’t as concerned with being in either of those roles. The Designer is more concerned with concepts and ideas. The Designer wants to create and often would rather be left alone.

  The Charmer types tend to be very competitive so they will dominate in the business world.  Anything involving advertising, marketing, or sales will be a good career choice for the Charmer. The Designer types will excel in careers where they don’t have to constantly interact with people and instead can be isolated such as data entry, computer software design, computer technician, or cubicle jobs. Professionals will be successful in fields such as teaching, mentoring, counseling, nursing and social work where a lot of care and nurturing is required.

  The Designer, Professional, and Charmer represent three distinct parts of society. The Designer represents artistry. The Professional represents professionalism. The Charmer represents opportunism.The Designer is a visionary. The Designer is also an intellectual. The Professional has one main concern. That concern is the comfort of others. The Charmer is a manipulator. They know how to take control of situations.