Will churches continue to exist until something takes their place as a social institution? I believe a driving reason for the continuation of religion is the fact that it fulfills a baser need to be a part of a group, and to help others. As primates this is built in. We need a circle of trust. A group of people we know are “good”, and will help us reach our goals. Until we replace that, we’re fighting against the baser needs of primates… Do you agree? If so, what replaces it?

The Department of Health and Human Services.

Suppose you could look at how countries with low church attendance get by.

1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)

Health Dept doesn’t replace churches as social institutions. I don’t go to the health dept to hang out with like minded folks to make the world better.

brad_exe - 03 January 2012 10:25 AM

Will churches continue to exist until something takes their place as a social institution? I believe a driving reason for the continuation of religion is the fact that it fulfills a baser need to be a part of a group, and to help others. As primates this is built in. We need a circle of trust. A group of people we know are “good”, and will help us reach our goals. Until we replace that, we’re fighting against the baser needs of primates… Do you agree? If so, what replaces it?

I suppose that belief in ‘God’ is a very powerful motivator, no matter how silly atheists might think it to be. Churches have preachers, who as well as doing charity, also preach. Atheism doesn’t have the preaching element, indeed atheists tend to eschew preaching, preferring scepticism and reasoning. As a consequence, the religious message always overshadows or underscores any good works done by the churches. And the churches preach in very public ways, on street corners, on TV, on radio, on billboards etc. as well as in their churches.

Religions are good at advertising. They tend to name their schemes with some reference to their religious affiliations, or at least attach the connection to their ad’s, eg.: {Such-and-such Soup Kitchen, an outreach of the XxYyZyz Church ministries}. There are a huge number of religious social services, which must be satisfying some of the needs of a huge number of people in some way. For atheist services to replace all or much of that, there is a long way to go

Did see this evening a Catholic Church Ad for ““come back to the church” on TV.  Apparently they’re doing that in effort to get people to come back?

brad_exe - 03 January 2012 04:37 PM

Health Dept doesn’t replace churches as social institutions. I don’t go to the health dept to hang out with like minded folks to make the world better.

Look at Post #2 here, which should address your OP.  Apparently a number of other countries have managed to develop alternatives to being preached at for social support.

brad_exe - 03 January 2012 04:37 PM

Health Dept doesn’t replace churches as social institutions. I don’t go to the health dept to hang out with like minded folks to make the world better.

In my personal experience that’s more or less what friends do ... eh?

Dennis Campbell - 03 January 2012 07:22 PM

brad_exe - 03 January 2012 04:37 PM

Health Dept doesn’t replace churches as social institutions. I don’t go to the health dept to hang out with like minded folks to make the world better.

Look at Post #2 here, which should address your OP.  Apparently a number of other countries have managed to develop alternatives to being preached at for social support.

Thanks Dennis, I was wondering if my post had addressed the argument.
Seems many almost non-religious countries have plenty going on, the link to the Swedish site shows this, not in the “preaching” sense though, as said in previous posts, but they appear to get by.

brad_exe - 03 January 2012 04:37 PM

Health Dept doesn’t replace churches as social institutions. I don’t go to the health dept to hang out with like minded folks to make the world better.

“Good people” don’t go to churches vs not, they associate in organizational groups of all sorts (see meeting halls, internet, bars, bowling alleys, etc, that don’t brandish crosses). Secularism establishes government institutions that help others. In fact, it helps churches help others (see taxpayer money to “faith-based” organizations and tax-exemptions). You don’t “go” to the health department to hang out, but you sure do contribute to its existence and “good works.” Secularism also establishes private non-profit “groups” for the same purposes. Why so many people seem to perceive that The Church needs “replacing” with something of like kind has always been perplexing to me. Some even want to call Atheism a religion. Your “replacement” for “The Church” actually is an “alternative” to it ... science and secularism. Perhaps one day churches will be converted to low-rent apartment buildings ... but I’m not holding my breath.

IMO the local Pub replaced the local Church centuries ago. Some just haven’t caught on.

Mr. _exe:
Will churches continue to exist until something takes their place as a social institution?

I have come to the conclusion late in life that this churchy fish will rot from the inside out. The head has rotted long, long ago and has dropped off and left a permanent stain on the carpet. Eventually, a new fish will burst forth from within that does the same job without all the silliness. It already grows within the church everyday.

As long as the Church Elites insist that there are supernatural reasons for keeping their jobs, secularist will turn to government to provide the woo-free social infrastructure they desire. This is a road to disaster because administering church-like social services on the basis of “all men are created equal” is insane.

The State should cover all social endeavours that should in principle treat everyone equally like courts and transportation. Equal protection against communist aggression is provided for both Cousin Jeeter of The Woods, South Carolina and Donald Trump of Dickland, Dicksovainia.

I believe a driving reason for the continuation of religion is the fact that it fulfills a baser need to be a part of a group, and to help others. As primates this is built in. We need a circle of trust.

Yes, and let’s not spoil it by turning it over to bureaucrats with procedures and forms and a five-timezone-wide jurisdiction. Roads and Courts and armies and such should be funded by taxes levied on economic traffic. Social safety net spending should be voluntary and given to a separate institution that is not held to some ridiculous standard of equality. When it comes to sorting out the difficult issues of our lives, we are not equals.

The Ba’hai have an admirable model of social infrastructure. They form groups that serve little regions of neighborhoods without a consecrated special building or woo-empowered spot that all knees much touch. They have Mr. Bob and all that, but he lives in a more sensible funhouse.
For Christian-raised Westerners, Islamic Community Centers have an appeal if only for their lack of the same old euro-trash vision of Heavenly Glory and for all the wonderful bathroom tile.

…a group of people we know are “good”, and will help us reach our goals.

The Good People are those who share the same Big Narrative with Big Special-Good Goals. Bad People follow some other Big Narrative with Big Evil Goals. Oh… we have to treat them as equals now so we can’t call them bad (except when they are “extreme”). Let’s call them, “those who require outreach”. “Outreach” meaning “let my narrative swallow your narrative”.

Secular folk just “are”. Big Narratives are just socially coordinated sparks in our heads. We’re still gonna want one, but this time it will be informed by Science and not by beads and rattles. Or even Books about beads and rattles. But we’re not gonna start charities and open public buildings… much. It is too dangerous.

If so, what replaces it?

The real 99%’ers are the growing number of pew warmers who personally reject 99 percent of their own declared Theism either through ignorance, apathy or an actual contrary opinion.

As atheists, we are all equally insane if we expect to wait for everyone to reject 100% of their various personal theologies. I’m not sure I have. That’s why I’m an Atheist. I will draw no conclusion on the matter… ever. To me, that is a commitment to an atheistic philosophy. (No, agnosticism is fence straddling over Jehovah or one of His other Registered Trademarks)

Picture me on your telly, soaking wet in a trenchcoat…

You have to get up off your pews, walk right up to pulpit and yell, “ I’m mad about Hell, and I know I’m not going to go there anymore.” Go to your Church Elder meetings… stand up in the aisle and say, “This isn’t what I need, and I don’t want to pay for this anymore.” Go to your Arch-Bishop… your Arch-Kings and Arch-Rooks and demand that the church council have a proportionate membership who have never been trained in “Divinity”. Go to them with your wallet and say, “I will give you some of my damn money, routinely, if you can provide the sort of social services I desire”. Stand up and demand that they hire Atheist Ministers and counselors to work alongside those who provide services for those who still believe. I want you to get up… right in the middle of the Processional to Whatever… stand up in front of it… get out in the aisle, raise your arms and yell, “You’re mad as Hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore!”

That’s what it will look like. Messy as usual.

Church and State still have an extremely profitable symbiosis. In many places, even if its off the books. Not mention the value that such collective behavior has for the marketing of consumer goods. Lot of rich people have a lot to lose if churches go away. I imagine that has to play into their apparent tenacity.

My sister’s Fundie church teaches awful things, but boy-oh-boy, when someone gets sick, the whole congregation rallies to his or her support. They clean the house, shop, take them to doctor’s appointment, cook, watch the kids and pray pray pray.  It’s not the same thing as having a social worker show up every other day for a half hour. The only group that can compare to a church community is a motorcycle gang.  Those folks really are a tight-knit group.

saralynn - 01 February 2012 04:27 PM

My sister’s Fundie church teaches awful things, but boy-oh-boy, when someone gets sick, the whole congregation rallies to his or her support. They clean the house, shop, take them to doctor’s appointment, cook, watch the kids and pray pray pray.  It’s not the same thing as having a social worker show up every other day for a half hour. The only group that can compare to a church community is a motorcycle gang.  Those folks really are a tight-knit group.

I had a roommate once whose fundy church taught that taking meds was showing a lack of faith, and lack of faith of course meant God wouldn’t heal you. He was a paranoid schizophrenic ... didn’t work out so well.

SkepticX - 01 February 2012 05:36 PM

saralynn - 01 February 2012 04:27 PM

My sister’s Fundie church teaches awful things, but boy-oh-boy, when someone gets sick, the whole congregation rallies to his or her support. They clean the house, shop, take them to doctor’s appointment, cook, watch the kids and pray pray pray.  It’s not the same thing as having a social worker show up every other day for a half hour. The only group that can compare to a church community is a motorcycle gang.  Those folks really are a tight-knit group.

I had a roommate once whose fundy church taught that taking meds was showing a lack of faith, and lack of faith of course meant God wouldn’t heal you. He was a paranoid schizophrenic ... didn’t work out so well.

Bad choice by him Skep, he would have had more support and success in Saralynns Motorcycle Group.