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Some form of religious belief will never pass away in our lifetime or in our children’s lifetime. First of all, religion brings comfort to people who are emotionally or intellectually needy, or educationally deprived. Now before Mario dashes off a blistering reply, I don’t presume religious belief is restricted to these people…indeed, there are many who fall into none of these categories. However, even he will have to admit that the majority of believers come from undeveloped countries and the poorer sections of our own country. In terms of a knowledge of history, philosophy, and science, even the “educated” in the US know very little about these subjects and, imo, this is not likely to change. Most people seldom read anymore, let alone ponder. They are too busy chasing entertainment. Most of my students do not read the books assigned in their classes. They pop onto the internet, read reviews of the books assigned, cut and paste, change the wording a bit, then hand it in without learning very much at all.
As for being emotionally needy, I am quite familiar with this malady since I myself am afflicted with it. Accepting that the only meaning in life is personal makes many of us feel a bit lost, especially when we grew up in a time when the supernatural world was well organized and we all knew our place in the “golden chain of being.” I grew up in a secular household, but I still vaguely believed in a tidy universe with a designer of sorts who had a personal interest in me and whose approval I sought.
But, there is one other reason that people will reject atheism and that is because most of us see the universe as a totality and not as scientists and mathematicians see it. When you view the world as a whole, it is astonishing and awe-inspiring. This awe evokes religious feelings for most of us. I’m not claiming that scientists don’t see the world in this way as well…or probably even more intensely…but, their response will be influenced by their added ability to dissect it and deconstruct it, whereas the majority of people are guided by an intuitive sense of totality, which leads to a feeling that “there is something more” behind it all.
There are other reasons, too. Most are psychological in nature or connected to our biological inheritance and brain structure.
So, atheism is doomed and only a minority of people will ever fall into this catergory. It’s not so awful. At least atheists don’t get invited to many potlucks or have to hang around with people they don’t really like out of a sense of duty and “fellowship”. Except maybe our relatives.
Some form of religious belief will never pass away in our lifetime or in our children’s lifetime. First of all, religion brings comfort to people who are emotionally or intellectually needy, or educationally deprived. Now before Mario dashes off a blistering reply, I don’t presume religious belief is restricted to these people…indeed, there are many who fall into none of these categories. However, even he will have to admit that the majority of believers come from undeveloped countries and the poorer sections of our own country. In terms of a knowledge of history, philosophy, and science, even the “educated” in the US know very little about these subjects and, imo, this is not likely to change. Most people seldom read anymore, let alone ponder. They are too busy chasing entertainment. Most of my students do not read the books assigned in their classes. They pop onto the internet, read reviews of the books assigned, cut and paste, change the wording a bit, then hand it in without learning very much at all.
As for being emotionally needy, I am quite familiar with this malady since I myself am afflicted with it. Accepting that the only meaning in life is personal makes many of us feel a bit lost, especially when we grew up in a time when the supernatural world was well organized and we all knew our place in the “golden chain of being.” I grew up in a secular household, but I still vaguely believed in a tidy universe with a designer of sorts who had a personal interest in me and whose approval I sought.
That’s all about community, not religion.
Religion tends to limit these communities and their positive experiences/benefits as opposed to most other kinds of communities. The limitations are usually insignificant, but it can be kind of a crap shoot too. It’s debatable whether religious groups provide more comfort in cases of more serious difficulty. Unfortunately religiously-based communities have monopolized the field, and there are precious few more sound and healthy communities in which to become involved. That’s part of the problem that comes with the Kool-Aid. The reason I think very few people realize this is 1) almost everyone is on the Kool-Aid, even if not to a serious degree, and 2) very few of even those who aren’t realize they’re reifying religion and then giving Religion credit for what are almost entirely positive properties of forming a community—very, very few ever seem to even recognize that they haven’t isolated that which is actually religious in nature from that which is common to most or all communities, and they conflate them such that if the community is religious in nature (which again has the monopoly), Religion gets all the positive credit (typically anything not so nice is credited to Humanity, since of course we suck).
So ... yeah, that’s Community, not Religion (reifying both here for the sake of argument/explanation).
saralynn - 31 October 2011 08:44 AM
But, there is one other reason that people will reject atheism and that is because most of us see the universe as a totality and not as scientists and mathematicians see it. When you view the world as a whole, it is astonishing and awe-inspiring. This awe evokes religious feelings for most of us. I’m not claiming that scientists don’t see the world in this way as well…or probably even more intensely…but, their response will be influenced by their added ability to dissect it and deconstruct it, whereas the majority of people are guided by an intuitive sense of totality, which leads to a feeling that “there is something more” behind it all.
There are other reasons, too. Most are psychological in nature or connected to our biological inheritance and brain structure.
And, I expect, equally short-sighted, quite frankly.
saralynn - 31 October 2011 08:44 AM
So, atheism is doomed and only a minority of people will ever fall into this catergory. It’s not so awful. At least atheists don’t get invited to many potlucks or have to hang around with people they don’t really like out of a sense of duty and “fellowship”. Except maybe our relatives.
Except that the polls show atheism as growing tremendously in popularity, especially among younger types (>/= 24 or something like that, according to the last Pew Poll that set the number in the younger types at something like 20-25%, which is huge).
Well I agree with that. Chasing entertainment has become a virtue…......
Then WTF is a book if not entertainment? I enjoyed my studies for many years because I found them entertaining, maybe not in the Price Is Right or wrastlin’ way, but they were entertaining nonetheless. And once I figured out how to do some jobs I got I found them entertaining as well. I went to the SF Opera three times to see what all the excitement was about and nearly fell asleep, so it was back to Lenny Kravitz and Social Distortion concerts for me.
Perhaps, saralynn, you mean the sort of mindless entertainment like video games, sports (spectating, not playing I mean), and Fox News to be the sort of entertainment worthy of derision. Pursuing entertainment as a virtue, well, depending on who is doing the defining of “entertainment” is not necessarily a bad thing.
Skipshot: Then WTF is a book if not entertainment? I enjoyed my studies for many years because I found them entertaining, maybe not in the Price Is Right or wrastlin’ way, but they were entertaining nonetheless. And once I figured out how to do some jobs I got I found them entertaining as well. I went to the SF Opera three times to see what all the excitement was about and nearly fell asleep, so it was back to Lenny Kravitz and Social Distortion concerts for me.
Perhaps, saralynn, you mean the sort of mindless entertainment like video games, sports (spectating, not playing I mean), and Fox News to be the sort of entertainment worthy of derision. Pursuing entertainment as a virtue, well, depending on who is doing the defining of “entertainment” is not necessarily a bad thing.
Actually, there are a lot of worthwhile social groups out there. Tons of volunteer organizations, for example. Some of those give you a chance to connect with something larger than yourself, sacrifice for a good cause, meet new friends, even have an occasional potluck.
However, they don’t claim to be “the be-all, end-all answer to every question you’ve ever had,” like religion does. Oh well.
I betcha that environmental issues are going to become more and more of a rallying point in the next generation or two or three. People are going to need to save the earth, rather than save their souls. More immediate, practical, tangible.
Well I agree with that. Chasing entertainment has become a virtue…......
Then WTF is a book if not entertainment? I enjoyed my studies for many years because I found them entertaining, maybe not in the Price Is Right or wrastlin’ way, but they were entertaining nonetheless. And once I figured out how to do some jobs I got I found them entertaining as well. I went to the SF Opera three times to see what all the excitement was about and nearly fell asleep, so it was back to Lenny Kravitz and Social Distortion concerts for me.
Perhaps, saralynn, you mean the sort of mindless entertainment like video games, sports (spectating, not playing I mean), and Fox News to be the sort of entertainment worthy of derision. Pursuing entertainment as a virtue, well, depending on who is doing the defining of “entertainment” is not necessarily a bad thing.
End of hijack.
Most books are about chasing entertainment to keep oneself busy and avoid the evils of boredom.
Some form of religious belief will never pass away in our lifetime or in our children’s lifetime. First of all, religion brings comfort to people who are emotionally or intellectually needy, or educationally deprived. Now before Mario dashes off a blistering reply, I don’t presume religious belief is restricted to these people…indeed, there are many who fall into none of these categories. However, even he will have to admit that the majority of believers come from undeveloped countries and the poorer sections of our own country. In terms of a knowledge of history, philosophy, and science, even the “educated” in the US know very little about these subjects and, imo, this is not likely to change. Most people seldom read anymore, let alone ponder. They are too busy chasing entertainment. Most of my students do not read the books assigned in their classes. They pop onto the internet, read reviews of the books assigned, cut and paste, change the wording a bit, then hand it in without learning very much at all.
As for being emotionally needy, I am quite familiar with this malady since I myself am afflicted with it. Accepting that the only meaning in life is personal makes many of us feel a bit lost, especially when we grew up in a time when the supernatural world was well organized and we all knew our place in the “golden chain of being.” I grew up in a secular household, but I still vaguely believed in a tidy universe with a designer of sorts who had a personal interest in me and whose approval I sought.
But, there is one other reason that people will reject atheism and that is because most of us see the universe as a totality and not as scientists and mathematicians see it. When you view the world as a whole, it is astonishing and awe-inspiring. This awe evokes religious feelings for most of us. I’m not claiming that scientists don’t see the world in this way as well…or probably even more intensely…but, their response will be influenced by their added ability to dissect it and deconstruct it, whereas the majority of people are guided by an intuitive sense of totality, which leads to a feeling that “there is something more” behind it all.
There are other reasons, too. Most are psychological in nature or connected to our biological inheritance and brain structure.
So, atheism is doomed and only a minority of people will ever fall into this catergory. It’s not so awful. At least atheists don’t get invited to many potlucks or have to hang around with people they don’t really like out of a sense of duty and “fellowship”. Except maybe our relatives.
I don’t think atheism is doomed, Saralyn. Neither do I think that I will die a disappointed man if a world-wide godlessness is not achieved in my lifetime. I will have done my bit to bring about the inevitable just that little bit sooner. I think religion and its evils will be with us for a while yet but the only real way for the world to move to the ‘next level’ will be to, by and large, get over religion. Like Hannah was saying, I think the next generations will be more concerned about maintaining a livable planet and with prolonging this life rather than hoping for some impossible afterlife. We come this way but once.
As someone else mentioned, look at the progress that has been made already, even in the god-ridden USA atheists are one of the largest and the fastest growng group.
Anyway, I have great hopes for Tasmania. The first godless state. All welcome. No guns!
Rob: I don’t think atheism is doomed, Saralyn. Neither do I think that I will die a disappointed man if a world-wide godlessness is not achieved in my lifetime. I will have done my bit to bring about the inevitable just that little bit sooner. I think religion and its evils will be with us for a while yet but the only real way for the world to move to the ‘next level’ will be to, by and large, get over religion. Like Hannah was saying, I think the next generations will be more concerned about maintaining a livable planet and with prolonging this life rather than hoping for some impossible afterlife. We come this way but once.
As someone else mentioned, look at the progress that has been made already, even in the god-ridden USA atheists are one of the largest and the fastest growng group.
Anyway, I have great hopes for Tasmania. The first godless state. All welcome. No guns!
I am relieved to hear this, Rob. Hope springs eternal in the human breast.
Hannah: Actually, there are a lot of worthwhile social groups out there. Tons of volunteer organizations, for example. Some of those give you a chance to connect with something larger than yourself, sacrifice for a good cause, meet new friends, even have an occasional potluck.
However, they don’t claim to be “the be-all, end-all answer to every question you’ve ever had,” like religion does. Oh well.
I betcha that environmental issues are going to become more and more of a rallying point in the next generation or two or three. People are going to need to save the earth, rather than save their souls. More immediate, practical, tangible.
There is a huge difference between thinking you are called to incarnate the divine on Earth, embodying the radiant love and knowledge that can transfigure reality , thus creating “Earth as it is in Heaven” and handing out leaflets about global warming.
Loss of faith is just that….a loss. I know…I know…it is also a gain, but few people will see it that way. Or…better yet….“feel” it that way.
I think I’ve used this quote at least a dozen times on this Forum, but I think it summarizes very well my view….
“Human kind can not bare very much reality”...TS Eliot
Atheism is anithetical to being doomed. It is infact growing and thriving. Most nations on earth become more secular every year. Atheism is actually the only way forward. To become more religious and less non-religious requires going backward in human culture, not forward.
If anything is doomed for posterity eventually, it will be Theism, if we don’t annihilate our species first.
Loss of faith is just that….a loss. I know…I know…it is also a gain, but few people will see it that way. Or…better yet….“feel” it that way.
Atheism isn’t doomed, saralynn, it’s just gaining its legs, follow the trend lines. Religion is progressively getting watered down to new forms of “spirituality” that nearly coincide with Atheism until eventually, the giant leap over is reduced to a mere small step. People won’t even feel they lost anything and wonder what all the fuss was about, they’ll even “feel” more enlightened. Granted, it will take many life times because of the drag from adherents to ancient religious dogma from all cultures including ours. As for Rob, I hope he goes out with a smile on his face.
I am perpetually astounded at the growth of secular movements all around me. Not only vocal atheists but also secular versions of community institutions that were formerly province of church affairs. (Often in the very buildings that were formerly churches!)
Even the religions themselves are becoming more secular. The advert is more and more distilled in plural communities. Stressing the non dogmatic components and embracing other traditions. Often eschewing their formal authority and going rogue. We had thirteen denominations represented in this years pride parade.
For the most part, all church activity I witness in prosperous and educated communities is moving towards my own view rather than away from it. I’m a long ways from disappointed. I’m almost afraid that its too good to be true.
