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Are anti-evolutionists actually atheists?
Posted: 24 November 2011 11:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Answerer - 21 November 2011 09:35 AM
can zen - 27 October 2011 03:03 PM
Skep - 27 October 2011 04:22 AM


Really?

Does something in trigonometry threaten a world view in which you’ve heavily invested and work hard to maintain?

I hate to admit it Skep, but “Yes!” it’s true, my fear of trig is directly challenging my belief that I am able to comprehend any and all scientific or mathematical theories if they are explained properly.  When I meet those words ‘sine’ and ‘cosine’ my brain self-destructs and I am forced to face the fact that I am not as intelligent as I thought I was . . . in fact, given my inability to understand how to calculate the area of a hyperbolic curve on a graph (which can’t really be that difficult after all) is proof enough that I am actually an idiot posing as an intelligent primate.  In effect, this sort of proof does threaten a world view, or at least my place in that world I am viewing.  Damn it all!

I saw a little bit of a lecture program on a religious TV station the other night. Apparently, its approach was to justify a theistic worldview by equating it with science, both being reduced to equally valid “beliefs.” It used some hypotheses and theories of science that either haven’t been proven or fits in “nicely” to justify alternative hypotheses that coincide with a theistic worldview of a “younger” earth/universe. The lecturer mentioned diamonds, but I don’t recall exactly what his point was except that perhaps diamonds that have come to the Earth’s surface generally range from under 1 billion to 3.3 billion years old, representing 22% to 73% of the “scientific” estimated age of the Earth. Another was comets, specifically the life of comets to indicate a younger universe. The lecturer referenced secular scientists’ Oort Cloud hypothesis that addresses new generation of comets. He then remarked that if you ask this scientist if he can prove it (Oort Cloud), the answer will be no, followed by, you can’t prove that it doesn’t exist either, therefore legitimizing the theistic worldview as equally valid “beliefs.” The lecture seemed to be peppered with these little anecdotes that produced laughter from the audience who were listening intently and busily taking notes. The point that was continually brought home was that both theistic and secular scientific thought are “world views” based on “beliefs” of equal validity and heavily invested interest.

When arguments like this are made I always think of something like “The word “proof” should always be used in quotes” and that old philosophical idea that goes something like… “Nothing can be proven at all because nobody can prove that they are not actually in some kind of dreamworld like in that movie The Matrix.”     

But the idea of the earth being only 6000 years old as opposed to over a billion years old always references the bible and assumes that this was written by god and he can’t be wrong and all that jazz. So arguing semantics like this is fine except other than “the bible said so” what evidence do christian scientists have that the earth is only 6000 years old? If you take the bible out of the argument and pretend it was never written then you have no point of reference to argue that the earth is only such and such years old as opposed to a scientificly theorized age. The idea from christian people used to be science is wrong, now it is science and religion (oddly, only christianity) are at least on equal footing, and possibly in the future more christians will accept the idea that the earth is over 6000 years old and that evolution DOES exist but that christianity is still right about God making it all. Just the fact that religious peoples opinions only change when it becomes necessary to battle popular consensus should set off a very loud warning alarm to christians that desperation is the reason for this new wave of anti-facts. And should they then ask themselves who is desperate and why they might actually come to the reality of this fight themselves and understand this is just a political agenda and has very little to do with the saving of souls. That’s my hope anyway.

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Posted: 24 November 2011 11:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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can zen - 26 October 2011 08:02 PM
hobbesbrundige - 23 October 2011 10:59 PM

Showing that a fear of science is unwarranted if you truly believe in god i think is one way to open the eyes of many christians. But I’m just throwing out ideas, if you think i’m wrong please tell me.

There is an obvious fear of science that seems to permeate the psyche of many religious people, but I think it’s no different really from my fear of trigonometry. I have a great affection for mathematics but some calculus I just don’t understand and I am apprehensive when I have to think about it.  I’ve seen some of the really stupid interpretations of how biological evolution works expressed by people who don’t like the theory and in most cases, they simply do not understand or comprehend it.

Now in reference to your point hobbes, religious people have something much more at stake when confronted by the science of evolution and I think that they purposely misunderstand it just so that they can boast about how ridiculous it is.  I’ve heard religious people say things about evolution that are laughable and absurd, and all I can conclude is that they are deliberately misunderstanding it because that makes it easier to dismiss.  These people can’t all be that stupid, can they? because when you take the mechanisms into account and you get a sense of the millions and even billions of years involved, it’s a very simple task to conclude that “obviously we are just a particular species of primate at some arbitrary stage in the evolution of life on this planet.”  Of course even if they just see the glimmer of this fact on the horizon of their thought-processes they will retreat in haste and gloatingly wallow in their pathetic misunderstandings.

 


I’ve wondered the same thing. It’s as if they are playing devils advocate only out of spite to others who refuse to be dilluded. I feel sometimes they are mad at people for not lying to themselves. But if this is true then they know full well they do not believe what they claim to believe. So really the only “true believers” in my mind are people who are so brainwashed they write off all ideas contrary to their own as evil and the people who spout these lies as demons trying to trick them with logic and reason to get their eternal souls.

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Posted: 25 November 2011 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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can zen - 26 October 2011 08:02 PM
hobbesbrundige - 23 October 2011 10:59 PM

Showing that a fear of science is unwarranted if you truly believe in god i think is one way to open the eyes of many christians. But I’m just throwing out ideas, if you think i’m wrong please tell me.

There is an obvious fear of science that seems to permeate the psyche of many religious people, but I think it’s no different really from my fear of trigonometry. I have a great affection for mathematics but some calculus I just don’t understand and I am apprehensive when I have to think about it.  I’ve seen some of the really stupid interpretations of how biological evolution works expressed by people who don’t like the theory and in most cases, they simply do not understand or comprehend it.

Now in reference to your point hobbes, religious people have something much more at stake when confronted by the science of evolution and I think that they purposely misunderstand it just so that they can boast about how ridiculous it is.  I’ve heard religious people say things about evolution that are laughable and absurd, and all I can conclude is that they are deliberately misunderstanding it because that makes it easier to dismiss.  These people can’t all be that stupid, can they? because when you take the mechanisms into account and you get a sense of the millions and even billions of years involved, it’s a very simple task to conclude that “obviously we are just a particular species of primate at some arbitrary stage in the evolution of life on this planet.”  Of course even if they just see the glimmer of this fact on the horizon of their thought-processes they will retreat in haste and gloatingly wallow in their pathetic misunderstandings.

My understanding of mathematics breaks down long before Can Zen’s fear of trigonometry.  My understanding of quantum physics breaks down long before Brian Green’s PBS series ‘FABRIC OF THE COSMOS’.  I watched the episodes this month with a mixture of fascination and annoyance.  This is probably as close as I’ll get to understanding the ‘anti-evolution’ of some religious people.

I’m fascinated by the amazing graphics/animation the program uses to try and illustrate these alien concepts, and also fascinated by my inability to understand the concepts, no matter how cleverly they are illustrated.

At the end of one of these episodes . . . baffled, dazed, I console myself with the ancient Chinese remark, “Every day the scholar knows more, and every day the ‘man of the way’ knows less.”  Are the anti-evolution deists taking refuge in something related to that? 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/fabric-of-cosmos.html

However, the ‘man of the way’ knowing less and less every day may arrive at the meditative state of MU, (empty, or ‘clear sky with no clouds of thought’), and religious people never arrive at that.  They arrive at the Bible, or the Koran, or a million thoughts about the stories in those books, a million thoughts about anything that contradicts those cherished stories.  For example, more than a thousand years ago Zen master Xiatang said to a student, “Transcend all mental objects, stop all rumination.  Don’t let either good or bad thoughts enter into your thinking, forget about both Buddhism and things of the world.  Let go of body and mind, like letting go over a cliff.  Be like space, not producing subjective thoughts of life and death, or any signs of discrimination.  If you have any views at all, cut them right off and don’t let them continue.”

This strikes me as the best mental state to be in if you want to suddenly see or comprehend something entirely new - something entirely foreign to your present understanding of things (of evolution or the cosmos for example).  Imagine a Christian minister or priest saying to his or her congregation, “Forget about both Jesus and things of the world.”

(Xiatang quoted from the book ‘ZEN ESSENCE - The Science of Freedom’ - translated and edited by Thomas Cleary)

[ Edited: 27 November 2011 09:49 AM by unsmoked ]
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