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I have always had an idea that christian fundamentalist who argue against things like evolution and the discoveries in fields of difference sciences are actually atheists. They are true atheists in that they believe that science may prove there is no god. My reasoning is that if you truly have an unshakable faith that a god created the universe then anything you discover about the universe would only lead to the fact that ultimately it was created by a supreme being. Christian scientists and pseudo-science mystics who try to blend facts with their own beliefs also fall into this category because if you feel the need to make leaps and connect things that you may intuitively feel but aren’t apparent experimentally then you are doing so out of a desperation that either science isn’t quick enough in finding god or you have to make these connections because you believe there isn’t really a god and science will never naturally connect the two. The latter is in reference to people like deepak chopra who are interested in science and believe it yet make claims that are not apparent experimentally. I think that if we (as a community of “atheists”) study religious peoples anti-science attitudes we can actually find the root cause of much of the static between us. I think this notion propagates the idea that religious people don’t really believe what they claim but I think that certain religious intellectuals and organizations have hidden agendas and are only using the common believer as a tool to meet these ends. If we know all of their true motivations behind all of their agendas then showing people the fraudulence of their claims will be easier. This is a call to any and all posters to point out as many examples of people or organizations christian or otherwise who have active anti-science agendas such as the Discovery Institute and all the ways they have tried to stop the teaching of evolution. My hope is that if we actively disseminate these peoples and organizations actions we can collectively show that there are reasons other than the claims made by these organizations that motivate their actions and in so doing make a case against the religious fundamentalist movement that it has no ones best interest involved. Showing that a fear of science is unwarranted if you truly believe in god i think is one way to open the eyes of many christians. But I’m just throwing out ideas, if you think i’m wrong please tell me.
I think your point is reasonable, hobbs. If they really believed in their god/s they would not be afraid of science and its discoveries. They would celebrate them rather than deliberately stick their heads in the sand. How they would be able to accommodate the discoveries of science with continued belief is the interesting question. How does one get over the cognitive dissonance? Their religion would have to some how evolve to accommodate science. Some seem to manage it. Ecurb/Bruce for example seems able to juggle it. At least to his satisfaction anyway.
Generally Christians don’t mind the idea of things evolving, just not humans. Many think all other life forms did evolve, but humans were direct spontaneous generations of God.
Many, even most possibly, accept microevolution, but some stumble with ideas like speciation or macroevolution.
And even Bruce has questioned on this forum the premise that complexity comes from simplicity in biology. He stated in the past that there really was no evidence for such. If so, then just how would we have gotten here?
Of course Bruce was/is confused about a lot of things, as most Christians are, when it comes to evolutionary science. It does not fit into their worldview very well actually.
Generally Christians don’t mind the idea of things evolving, just not humans. Many think all other life forms did evolve, but humans were direct spontaneous generations of God . . .
For the sake of argument, if they are correct, then IMHO, “he” did an extremely poor job, in so many ways and at a number of levels: morphological, physiological, psychological, intellectual etc.
Christians believe that God “touched” his creation at different times, allowing for life to exist when there was only the elements and human thought to exist when there was only animal instinct. Only a small group of fundamentalists believe in the instantaneous arrival of the human form. And these believers simply have not thought through the ability of God to use his infinite power within the framework of the finite universe. But despite this, fundamentalists are still closer to the truth than a materialistic atheist who looks at the scientific data and maintains that evolution is an upward progression without purpose, i.e., mindless.
Let me give you an example of how pro-evolutionists of the atheist variety are not the rational giants they think they are:
A thousand helium-filled balloons are released from the floor of a rain forest. As they rise, some of them do not get very high up and get caught in the lower leaves and branches. Others get higher, but still get caught in the trees. Some are grabbed by monkeys and popped. But one gets through the canopy above and floats high in the sky.
Now to comment on this balloon or that balloon getting caught on this branch or that branch or grabbed by this monkey or that monkey is to do what the blindly following evolutionist does. But what does he or she miss in doing this? Well, he or she misses the most important thing—that the balloons were filled with helium.
Science has shown us that biological evolution has progressed upward with a definite purpose. The physical universe loses energy when it acts. Life is different. It rises upward, multiplies, evolves. It has a purpose. And the believer knows that this purpose is what counts, and that the one balloon that got away is the best story told.
‘Christians believe that God “touched” his creation at different times, allowing for life to exist when there was only the elements and human thought to exist when there was only animal instinct’
So BM, you speak for all Christians and know what they all think and believe concerning creation? All 2 billion of them?
This shows your absolutist mentality, and explains why you are obsessed with ancient dogma and superstition, instead of modern skepticism and scientific inquiry.
Eu, learned Christians, especially clergy, believe this. How can someone speak for all of any group? Duh.
I see you read my parable and thought about it. Not. This shows the depth of your intellect.
And absolute truth is simply truth. You using the word absolute is redundant and shows your desire to label things and tuck them neatly into a compartment that you can handle.
Biological evolution shows an ABSOLUTE determination to reach the highest levels possible, a purpose. And this flies against every physical law in the universe. It is a contradiction. Life is, simply, a miraculous reality. Science is left floundering in its presence.
It is the atheist who denies the greatest truths of evolution, not the believer. It is this person who holds up limited scientific data and projects a materialistic agenda upon biological evolution.
Look for the book Human Destiny written in the 1950s by a very well-known and important scientist. I dare you to read it. It is mostly scientific, and totally brilliant.
Or stay where you are, in all your dull glory.
THE PURPOSE OF BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION IS, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN, THE ULTIMATE EXISTENCE OF MAN.
Showing that a fear of science is unwarranted if you truly believe in god i think is one way to open the eyes of many christians. But I’m just throwing out ideas, if you think i’m wrong please tell me.
There is an obvious fear of science that seems to permeate the psyche of many religious people, but I think it’s no different really from my fear of trigonometry. I have a great affection for mathematics but some calculus I just don’t understand and I am apprehensive when I have to think about it. I’ve seen some of the really stupid interpretations of how biological evolution works expressed by people who don’t like the theory and in most cases, they simply do not understand or comprehend it.
Now in reference to your point hobbes, religious people have something much more at stake when confronted by the science of evolution and I think that they purposely misunderstand it just so that they can boast about how ridiculous it is. I’ve heard religious people say things about evolution that are laughable and absurd, and all I can conclude is that they are deliberately misunderstanding it because that makes it easier to dismiss. These people can’t all be that stupid, can they? because when you take the mechanisms into account and you get a sense of the millions and even billions of years involved, it’s a very simple task to conclude that “obviously we are just a particular species of primate at some arbitrary stage in the evolution of life on this planet.” Of course even if they just see the glimmer of this fact on the horizon of their thought-processes they will retreat in haste and gloatingly wallow in their pathetic misunderstandings.
Showing that a fear of science is unwarranted if you truly believe in god i think is one way to open the eyes of many christians. But I’m just throwing out ideas, if you think i’m wrong please tell me.
There is an obvious fear of science that seems to permeate the psyche of many religious people, but I think it’s no different really from my fear of trigonometry.
Really?
Does something in trigonometry threaten a world view in which you’ve heavily invested and work hard to maintain?
The worship of science and the blind faith in its ability to answer every question about life, morality, human thought, and other subjects proven to be out of its realm is more to the point than what a bunch of atheist materialists “believe” about the psych of believers in God.
Science (i.e., the human mind at work) is not the golden child of the atheist. Science, to the educated believer, is a mere reflection of the mind of God. It is always and everywhere in support of the divine mind at work.
Afraid of science? Give me a break.
The greatest scientists in history worked within their scientific framework without branching out into areas of speculation and broad generalizations. Take their examples and leave belief in God in the compartment you have put it in, and then slowly walk away. Go ahead…walk away…don’t look back!...that a boy.
Does something in trigonometry threaten a world view in which you’ve heavily invested and work hard to maintain?
I hate to admit it Skep, but “Yes!” it’s true, my fear of trig is directly challenging my belief that I am able to comprehend any and all scientific or mathematical theories if they are explained properly. When I meet those words ‘sine’ and ‘cosine’ my brain self-destructs and I am forced to face the fact that I am not as intelligent as I thought I was . . . in fact, given my inability to understand how to calculate the area of a hyperbolic curve on a graph (which can’t really be that difficult after all) is proof enough that I am actually an idiot posing as an intelligent primate. In effect, this sort of proof does threaten a world view, or at least my place in that world I am viewing. Damn it all!
A thousand helium-filled balloons are released from the floor of a rain forest. As they rise, some of them do not get very high up and get caught in the lower leaves and branches. Others get higher, but still get caught in the trees. Some are grabbed by monkeys and popped. But one gets through the canopy above and floats high in the sky.
Now to comment on this balloon or that balloon getting caught on this branch or that branch or grabbed by this monkey or that monkey is to do what the blindly following evolutionist does. But what does he or she miss in doing this? Well, he or she misses the most important thing—that the balloons were filled with helium.
Science has shown us that biological evolution has progressed upward with a definite purpose. The physical universe loses energy when it acts. Life is different. It rises upward, multiplies, evolves. It has a purpose. And the believer knows that this purpose is what counts, and that the one balloon that got away is the best story told.
Hey, Mario, I appreciated your balloon analogy. When I am in a theistic mode, that is how I conceptualize evolution….a force with a destiny. I also read that book “Human Destiny” when I was young and it influenced me greatly. Maybe I will check it out again to see how it holds up after 50 years.
Showing that a fear of science is unwarranted if you truly believe in god i think is one way to open the eyes of many christians. But I’m just throwing out ideas, if you think i’m wrong please tell me.
There is an obvious fear of science that seems to permeate the psyche of many religious people, but I think it’s no different really from my fear of trigonometry. I have a great affection for mathematics but some calculus I just don’t understand and I am apprehensive when I have to think about it. I’ve seen some of the really stupid interpretations of how biological evolution works expressed by people who don’t like the theory and in most cases, they simply do not understand or comprehend it.
Now in reference to your point hobbes, religious people have something much more at stake when confronted by the science of evolution and I think that they purposely misunderstand it just so that they can boast about how ridiculous it is. I’ve heard religious people say things about evolution that are laughable and absurd, and all I can conclude is that they are deliberately misunderstanding it because that makes it easier to dismiss. These people can’t all be that stupid, can they? because when you take the mechanisms into account and you get a sense of the millions and even billions of years involved, it’s a very simple task to conclude that “obviously we are just a particular species of primate at some arbitrary stage in the evolution of life on this planet.” Of course even if they just see the glimmer of this fact on the horizon of their thought-processes they will retreat in haste and gloatingly wallow in their pathetic misunderstandings.
Well here’s where my own “religion” comes into play since I can’t prove a lot of my social beliefs however I think your average everyday urban/suburban american believer has no qualms with their children being taught evolution or anything else since they take their own religion with a grain of salt. It’s only when their overzealous church leader or some “news” special they see on pat robertsons show tells them how horrifyingly damaging teaching facts to christian children can be. I do know what you’re talking about since I’ve had similar conversations with anti-evolutionists and they really do have the blinders on. My hope is that if you can show the moderates how… strange the people who give them the orders are acting they might question more about their situation. It’s a lot to hope for but who knows.
Does something in trigonometry threaten a world view in which you’ve heavily invested and work hard to maintain?
I hate to admit it Skep, but “Yes!” it’s true, my fear of trig is directly challenging my belief that I am able to comprehend any and all scientific or mathematical theories if they are explained properly. When I meet those words ‘sine’ and ‘cosine’ my brain self-destructs and I am forced to face the fact that I am not as intelligent as I thought I was . . . in fact, given my inability to understand how to calculate the area of a hyperbolic curve on a graph (which can’t really be that difficult after all) is proof enough that I am actually an idiot posing as an intelligent primate. In effect, this sort of proof does threaten a world view, or at least my place in that world I am viewing. Damn it all!
I saw a little bit of a lecture program on a religious TV station the other night. Apparently, its approach was to justify a theistic worldview by equating it with science, both being reduced to equally valid “beliefs.” It used some hypotheses and theories of science that either haven’t been proven or fits in “nicely” to justify alternative hypotheses that coincide with a theistic worldview of a “younger” earth/universe. The lecturer mentioned diamonds, but I don’t recall exactly what his point was except that perhaps diamonds that have come to the Earth’s surface generally range from under 1 billion to 3.3 billion years old, representing 22% to 73% of the “scientific” estimated age of the Earth. Another was comets, specifically the life of comets to indicate a younger universe. The lecturer referenced secular scientists’ Oort Cloud hypothesis that addresses new generation of comets. He then remarked that if you ask this scientist if he can prove it (Oort Cloud), the answer will be no, followed by, you can’t prove that it doesn’t exist either, therefore legitimizing the theistic worldview as equally valid “beliefs.” The lecture seemed to be peppered with these little anecdotes that produced laughter from the audience who were listening intently and busily taking notes. The point that was continually brought home was that both theistic and secular scientific thought are “world views” based on “beliefs” of equal validity and heavily invested interest.
The anti-evolutionists aren’t atheists, they’re idolators. They lock the idea of a creator into a little box and then insist that the whole truth is contained in that box and that the idol in that box can only be, do, and say whatever they approve of. IMO, there isn’t a greater display of lack of faith than in those who can only celebrate the creation, 1. If there is a creator, 2. if that creator exists according to their beliefs and demands.
