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I think you’re confusing community for religion. It’s a very common misconception. Religion gets credit for what we, as a species and as communities, offer and accomplish for each other.
I’d say you need to make a complete break from your paired association of spiritualism with religion, especially that dogma can even be considered a contributing factor. Perhaps a systematic de-sensitization approach may be helpful. Of course, in the beginning it’s difficult to step out of your comfort zone as is the case with training in any new discipline. Motivation is a key factor also, it can be easy to talk yourself out of something you know is good for you, or avoid something you imagine is more difficult than it actually is. In the end, you may find that you haven’t really lost anything that you may have feared losing, and realized many more gains instead.
.... I doubt I’ll get much support for this in a forum full of atheists, but I still do feel that, at its core, religion can represent our most beautiful and sacred impulses. The desire to converge around shared goals for the benefit of society, selfless love, systems of social support, and transcendence….
I don’t think we would deny you the support your seeking and many will understand the process you find yourself going through.
Like you said “religion can represent our most beautiful and sacred impulses” , but in the end they are your impulses and mine, not the property of any religion.
Those urges we all feel to share goals, benefit society and all those other worthwhile experiences can mean so much more to us when we know that they are acts, not of self preservation or for a divine reward, but that they stem from our own humanity.
Man created gods and placed man’s values at the heart of those dogmas along with a need to control the masses, take the god part away and the desire to make people serfs and you might be left with something worthwhile .
‘There are beautiful things in the world to believe in. Religion presents us with one story, a finite set of answers to the world’s biggest questions’
And this is a large part of the problem. Religion provides no answers, just anecdotes for the believing brain to use as answers.
Big difference, and a big part of the ‘belief’ issue that billions of people do not understand or accept.
Answers based on belief or faith are not necessarily answers. They simply satisfy many humans confirmation bias.
If people can live, and live well, with that intellectual laziness and dishonesty, so be it, and good for them. Just leave me and mine out of that equation, please.
‘There are beautiful things in the world to believe in. Religion presents us with one story, a finite set of answers to the world’s biggest questions’
And this is a large part of the problem. Religion provides no answers, just anecdotes for the believing brain to use as answers.
Exactly. To correct that comment:
“There are beautiful things in the world to believe in. Religion presents us with one story, a finite set of [presumptions] regarding the world’s biggest questions.”
eudemonia - 10 November 2011 08:24 AM
Big difference, and a big part of the ‘belief’ issue that billions of people do not understand or accept.
And the breadth and depth of the harm in learning to think like that can’t be understated.
Proclaiming to be an atheist because you see religion as restricting is like proclaiming to be a vegetarian because you saw a dead chicken.
Religion is an expression of the faith, and a product of the opinions, of human beings using their intellects to conceptualize and their wills to gather together.
So to question religion (i.e., its concepts and rituals) and think you will find the ultimate answer to whether or not God exists is stupid.
Individuals within religions have made claims that God not only exists but has made himself known clearly and without doubt. There have been too many to list here. But what is telling is the so-called atheist’s focus on a generalized group of believers, while turning away from any thought about, or any investigation into, these individuals. And usually the generalized group of believers possesses the least challenge to the atheist’s claim to have science and reason in their corner.
In other words, to sit on a porch in the Bible belt and look out for a definition of Christianity, while never reading the Vatican II documents, and then post a scathing report on what you see, is willful ignorance and self-serving nonsense.
Furthermore, making the feeling of peace (or whatever) you felt when you stepped away from the notion of “a judgement day” as a sort of proof that you have made a step into the truth, is akin to making the lifestyles of porn stars and drug dealers the most freeing.
(Oh, and I see the guy with the mocking name and the lack of education (he’s said in numerous posts) is still attempting to put words together into a sentence that will turn the attention of others to how clever he can be. More willful ignorance and self-serving nonsense, which this website is replete with.)
‘There are beautiful things in the world to believe in. Religion presents us with one story, a finite set of answers to the world’s biggest questions’
And this is a large part of the problem. Religion provides no answers, just anecdotes for the believing brain to use as answers.
Exactly. To correct that comment:
“There are beautiful things in the world to believe in. Religion presents us with one story, a finite set of [presumptions] regarding the world’s biggest questions.”
Or even one step further:
“There are beautiful things in the world to believe in. Religion removes ownership of many of those by claiming ownership of those impulses through dogmatic traditions and allegory.”
Humanity does beautiful things. (as well as some pretty terrible things.)
We should take ownership and responsibility for both.
‘There are beautiful things in the world to believe in. Religion presents us with one story, a finite set of answers to the world’s biggest questions’
And this is a large part of the problem. Religion provides no answers, just anecdotes for the believing brain to use as answers.
Exactly. To correct that comment:
“There are beautiful things in the world to believe in. Religion presents us with one story, a finite set of [presumptions] regarding the world’s biggest questions.”
Or even one step further:
“There are beautiful things in the world to believe in. Religion removes ownership of many of those by claiming ownership of those impulses through dogmatic traditions and allegory.”
Humanity does beautiful things. (as well as some pretty terrible things.)
We should take ownership and responsibility for both.
Couldn’t agree more. That may well be the most ugly and most harmful aspect of Religion—could very well be the source for the rest of the Dark Side that Religion has to offer (not that it seems at all likely we could determine that objectively, or in an actual or meaningful sense).
Proclaiming to be an atheist because you see religion as restricting is like proclaiming to be a vegetarian because you saw a dead chicken.
Religion is an expression of the faith, and a product of the opinions, of human beings using their intellects to conceptualize and their wills to gather together.
So to question religion (i.e., its concepts and rituals) and think you will find the ultimate answer to whether or not God exists is stupid.
Individuals within religions have made claims that God not only exists but has made himself known clearly and without doubt. There have been too many to list here. But what is telling is the so-called atheist’s focus on a generalized group of believers, while turning away from any thought about, or any investigation into, these individuals. And usually the generalized group of believers possesses the least challenge to the atheist’s claim to have science and reason in their corner.
In other words, to sit on a porch in the Bible belt and look out for a definition of Christianity, while never reading the Vatican II documents, and then post a scathing report on what you see, is willful ignorance and self-serving nonsense.
Furthermore, making the feeling of peace (or whatever) you felt when you stepped away from the notion of “a judgement day” as a sort of proof that you have made a step into the truth, is akin to making the lifestyles of porn stars and drug dealers the most freeing.
(Oh, and I see the guy with the mocking name and the lack of education (he’s said in numerous posts) is still attempting to put words together into a sentence that will turn the attention of others to how clever he can be. More willful ignorance and self-serving nonsense, which this website is replete with.)
I don’t think you understand how hard it is to become an atheist, and stay one. I read a lot of stories here about people struggling, as in this thread. It’s more like getting on a horse, not falling off one. For most, it’s easy to believe. They simply want to. I can’t speak for all atheists but I for one, am not mad at god, nor do I find him restricting. I simply lack the capacity to believe. I have seen no burning bush, or any other evidence to convince me. Don’t think for a moment I ( we ) have not spent years, searching in a thoughtful manner.
Atheists don’t need science on their side at all. We do however see over the years, that it is not on the theists side. If there was no religion, there would be no atheists. Or would we all be atheists?
mocking name guy, you haven’t gotten on any horse, you have put the cart before the horse. The horse is the spirit of God, which you deny, and the cart is the expression of this spirit in human beings, which sometimes takes the form of religion. To reverse these is to engage in circular reasoning—i.e., god does not exist, therefore all religious yearnings for god have come from the people themselves.
And to say that atheism is difficult is the dumbest thing I ever heard. Having the opinion that your thoughts and actions are hidden and without any lasting consequence makes a person free to do anything they want to do. See something you can easily steal, go ahead. Want to flirt with a young co-worker, go for it. Hate somebody and want to spread nasty rumors about them, just do it.
No. Believing that every hair on your head is counted, and that every thought you think, word you speak, or action you take goes into a kitty that will one day be opened up for all the world to see—now that’s some serious living. Your way is the way of the weakling and the egotist and the evil s.o.b., for these are the people who live an atheist life the fullest. Chances are you are simply a personality atheist, the kind that thinks they are what they think they are and what they say they are. Try being an auto mechanic by reading a book on engines and then telling people you are now an auto mechanic.
No. When the bus speeds toward you, or the child lays dying, or any such tragedy faces you, then you will see who you are. For now, you are talking out of your head, and some other second place.
It is a long, drawn out process for many. A lot of us (whateveryoucallits) started out being brainwashed by our parents. Its a time honored tradition that holds no malice as far as I am concerned. Then you have the fact, that it’s very comforting to many. For the very reasons you and I both, have clearly stated. Add to that, the peer pressure of those like our good friend Mario. Not to mention those around us we hold in higher esteem. Parents, friends, brothers and sisters. Its a wonder anyone tames that horse at all.
Atheist.. I think that word can take on many meanings for many people. Some equate it with the devil and some kind of hatred of god and his followers. For others it simply means a 100% doubt of any supernatural being, or god. I don’t think I can ever muster 100% doubt. However. in my simple little 2 brain celled head I would put odds of about 1 in X. Where X equals the total number of atoms in the visible universe. For me, that’s close enough to call myself an atheist.
Mario:
I didn’t mention a cart to hook up to my horse. You invented it to suet your needs. Then, you claimed I put the said cart, in the wrong place on top of it all.
I also don’t feel free to do whatever I want to willy nilly . I would love to drive 75 MPH in a 65 MPH zone. I do however believe in the police. I do on occasion get the urge to go 120 MPH. But reason and common sense keep me from such craziness, much more than the cops.. Odds are good that I could get away with it but its still a terrible idea.
Maybe you don’t stop and think, that most of us have been right where you are now. Bible thumping, god fearing christians. How could you get in our shoes? Would it be hard? Would it be impossible for you? If you are going to come to the kind of community Reason is. It may serve you to understand that most of us have been on both sides of the fence, whereas you my friend, have not. I would never in a million years suggest you stop coming here sir. I would however HIGHLY recommend you begin to check yourself, before you use words like stupid and ignorant. I am sure we are all tempted at such language from time to time but the smart ones here tend to find other ways to express such sentiments. Either by proof or creative rebuttal. .
mocker, I am not a Christian, nor do I thump the Bible.
I recently saw one such person on Fox news yelling that unless a person professes that Jesus is the Lord he or she “punches a one-way ticket straight to Hell”. I wanted to jump into the television and punch this guy straight to unconsciousness. He was a short, fat, dumb-ass who received a speck of spiritual knowledge and ran with it to make himself into a preacher man and spokesperson for the living God.
No. I am no such person. And Jesus is no such messiah.
What I have been telling the people on this website for years (pay no attention to my join date because I have been banned at least 3 times and my posts deleted again and again) is that there is a living God who has a personality, delights in playing among us, has revealed himself through his spirit in every good religion and every person of good will, and became incarnate as a human being 2000 years ago.
What I have been saying about Jesus is that his life, death, and resurrection is the culmination and fulfillment of all revelation, the answer to all our questions about who God is and who we are, and the perfect return of God’s love back to himself.
What I have been saying about the Bible is that it is an inspire work of the Holy Spirit, written by the only tools this Spirit had to work with—human beings.
What I have been saying is that if God the Father were to write a book, the pages of the introduction would stack up to the moon.
What I have been saying is that religion, despite its spiritual foundation, is a human expression of divine truths, prone to intellectual error.
What I have been saying is that intellectual atheists are similar to religious fundamentalists, not to mystics and saints, for people such as these possess knowledge born of experience, while athies and fundies are opinionated first and foremost.
Yes. I have been saying these things for years.
Yes. I claim to be cut from the mystic cloth, and not the saintly cloth.
So, step off your porch in the Bible belt and take a walk to your local book store and buy a copy of Ascent of Mt. Carmel by St. John of the Cross, and a copy of the Vatican II documents, that is if you wish to (1) understand where I am coming from and (2) understand Christianity to its fullest.
Oh, and change your screen name. Now, before you wonder if it was your mockery that caused you some of the pain and grief we all come to sooner or later.
I have a conscience that won’t stop badgering me. I carry guilt around as if it were a baby. I still can’t get rid myself of the thought that I am disappointing God if I fail to act morally. I know this is a result of habit-formation because I spent decades reading spiritual material and all my brain cells are saturated with woo. I suspect that I am too old to change. In fact, I’m not even sure if I want to. I think I would be creepier if I didn’t feel like God was looking over my shoulder all the time. But…who knows? It’s am impossible question to answer because, obviously, if I had a different personal history, I wouldn’t be me.
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