Project Reason is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. The foundation draws on the talents of prominent and creative thinkers in a wide range of disciplines to encourage critical thinking and erode the influence of dogmatism, superstition, and bigotry in our world.
I’m not sure that you have presented a question. Aside from that, I find nothing in what you have posted, to be pretty dumb, or dumb in any way. Should you post anything which I think is pretty dumb, I will be inclined to let you know. If you dig your heels in, then I guess that might mean that you are not taking notice of the sense in what I might say. I would hope that if I do claim that anything you might post happens to be dumb in any way, that your response would be to try and convince me that I am the one who is mistaken, again with you not by telling me that I’m pretty dumb in turn, but rather explaining why my ideas seem dumb to you. Such interchanges are what I envision is meant by REASON, and RATIONAL debate
I think that as an atheist, I care about truth, and dumb ideas dressed up as truth, would irritate me.
Hello, Speechie,
It seems to me that what you are asking is why is it that the atheist/secularist /humanist/whatever you want to call us, so often seems to take such a superior tone and attitude whenever discussing matters of faith with a believer. Wouldn’t we be better served in furthering our views if we were to approach the debate with more humility and less certainty? Because I have been accused of it often enough, I have given it a bit of thought. Here is what I think. It’s not original or earth shaking in any way, but you asked, and I happen to be browsing the project reason forum tonight.
My answer is that, much like the person of faith, who is so certain they are correct in the faith they put in god, and their certainty that god exists, the non-believer is at least equally certain that god does not exist. Any argument a person with faith in god (pick your denomination) puts forth, or any argument that a person lacking all faith in god puts forth simply does not resonate with the other person (or in many cases “people” in the discussion. This can often lead down a path of divisive and increasingly ugly rhetoric, In some cases one or the other finally says “Enough! Let’s just agree to disagree. “ or words to that effect. In some extreme cases this line of debate leads to the destruction of friendships or much worse.
For me, the bottom line is, you either believe, or you don’t. Further it is incredibly difficult to change someone else’s mind about what they think on the subject. (Even someone as calm , rational, persuasive, and well known as Sam Harris has a really poor track record in this regard.)
Does this mean we humans should not continue to debate it? In my opinion, absolutely not! While I have never, to my knowledge changed a single persons mind about their own beliefs, I think that to cease discussing it is a mistake. Only one group in this debate can be correct. God either exists or doesn’t. Until god can conclusively show all humanity that there is a god, (for the purpose of this discussion it would more correct to say “until humans can show conclusively that god exists), for me there simply is no god. I could go into the reason why I don’t believe, but seriously, why bother?
From reading your post, Speechie, I can’t help wondering if you are not a person who is sort of “on the fence” about your own beliefs. You seem to be asking for someone to push you over onto the side of the humanist’s among us, but to do so in a gentle fashion. It will never happen. In the words of the smartest bear I never knew. “Only YOU can prevent forest fires.“
Still, I make no bones about my own belief:
“What we each believe is actually important to the human species, and to planet earth, and far too many of us have gotten things wrong”
-F4R
[ Edited: 24 August 2011 10:30 PM by Fool4Reason ]
Hello again Speechie,
So if you will allow me to reinterpret/distill your position, what you are basically saying is that you want to believe there is something out there greater than us human beings, you think religion in general holds a valuable and desirable place in our society, you understand that scientific and secular principles are also good, and you would agree that the lunatic fringe in any religion are undesirable. Have I got everything right so far?
GAD - Well, I can’t argue with you if that’s your stance. I hope you haven’t had a lot of negative experiences that have led you to that conclusion, if that’s the case I really am sorry for whatever you went through.
Sure you could argue with me, not that it would do any good, but you could
And why play the oh so sorry “negative experiences” card? If I see magic and superstition for the ignorant bullshit that it is it must be because I had “negative experiences”? It can’t be because it is reasonable and rational? Does 2+2=4 only if I say it politely and have had “positive experiences”?
I am a non believer when it comes to anything supernatural , but I do actually agree with you to some extent.
The experiences I have had in the work I do and the experiences I have had on this forum and others lends itself to understand your point . I work with adults with learning difficulties and have studied ” Behavioural Analysis “.
Quite often there is a feel that you are being down rated as far as intelligence and experience is concerned by a group which statistically is shown to be made up of the intellectual elite , most scientist and intellectuals tend to be agnostic or atheist .
Even on this forum I have withdrawn from posting on threads that I have a valid opinion on , or would just like to comment on ,because of a feel that each word or phrase or spelling is going to be criticised ,sometimes not for their meaning or context , but just to gain points or ridicule .
If this is how “we” treat our own then I feel there is not much chance for those who actually disagree with our views .I must say also that this attitude is not unique to this forum , it is exactly the same on Christian forums I have visited .
Maybe it’s the nature of debate and we should all be thicker skinned or not take everyone’s comments too seriously , I don’t know.
As far as gaining or making converts , I’m not sure if that is our intention , sometimes just to plant a seed is enough and let the person come to their own conclusions.
It’s true though , you can put people off straight away if there is an appearance of elitism or scorn .
Not everyone is like this by the way , you need to pick and choose , to learn who you can debate with or just chat with without fear of criticism or condescension.
Speechie - You are basically make the tone argument which has been going on for some time now. Atheism is a very disparate group of folks who really only have one thing in common: we don’t believe in a god(s). Besides that one single unifier there really isn’t anything else holding us together. Atheists encompass all sides of the political spectrum from super conservative (mostly due to economic reasons) to socialist/communist. There are those of us who don’t believe in God but believe in belief. We call them Fathiests. On the other end are the likes of PZ Myers and Sam Harris (also, Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens, etc.) who are a lot more outspoken against faith. The term you use, New Atheist, tends to denote these latter types of people. Where the “old” atheist was more apt to keep their mouth shut about belief, the new atheist is not afraid to challenge those beliefs publicly. As a social movement, the new atheist has a view that religion, more than just being a private matter of belief, is actually harmful to society. In order to challenge those harmful effects, someone has to be egregiously vocal. No one ever made significant change in society by shutting up. There are those elements of Christian Fundamentalism that seek to gain control of society (both here in the US and abroad). IF you don’t believe me, look at the current front-runners of the Republican party. Rick Perry, Michelle Bachman, etc. They are science deniers and Christian Dominionists who want to rule this country by “Biblical Principles.” When they shut up and keep their faith to themselves, so will the new atheists.
Martin said something in his post about feeling “downrated” when communicating with people here and at other forum sites. This is a perfectly logical reaction to forum activity. People are often jerks, regardless of their belief systems. I certainly include myself in those ranks. Sometimes people on this and other forums use rudeness, scorn and a superior attitude to cover up profound feelings of inadequacy. I’m sure if I were to take the time to reread some of my own posts, I would marvel at what an insecure a-hole I can be. On the other hand, I have read posts from others that lead me to believe that there are people out there who actually are superior beings, and can be forgiven for looking askance at people of obviously lesser intelligence and commenting accordingly. I certainly don’t think we are all created equal, despite the U.S. Declaration of Independence’s opening statement to the contrary.
I do think that the world we live in would be much improved if each of us starts really thinking, speaking with others and writing more about our beliefs and where they come from, and listen to others openly and without judgment as much as possible. Sometimes though, judgment is required.
And speaking of improving our world, I really enjoyed this post on youtube. It’s very long, fairly dense, but Sam says a lot in it. If you haven’t seen it yet, I recommend you give it your full attention. I think it’s worth it, regardless of what you personally believe. Do it later if this is too late in the day, err night, ummm, I mean morning.
The biggest problem with the “can’t we all just ... get along” idea is that we simply can’t, at least not if we “dare” to even sheepishly admit what we don’t believe. Many people are offended by our mere existence, not as people, but as people who don’t share their basic world view. Personally I’d argue that if someone is so fragile as to be all bent out of shape over such a disagreement, that someone is in need of a little more bending—reality isn’t going to pull punches in order to accommodate anyone’s delicate personal sensibilities.
I hope you haven’t had a lot of negative experiences that have led you to that conclusion, if that’s the case I really am sorry for whatever you went through. 
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