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Speechie - 11 August 2011 11:57 AM

First of all, I don’t think it’s a lie, but that’s not relevant in the context of this particular question, since I’m arguing that I don’t care if you think it is or not. Second, that’s a very broad question depending on the beliefs in question, so I will certainly agree that what beliefs a person carries are important, religious or otherwise.

if all people with religion were as thoughtful as you i doubt atheists would have any problem with the concept of stories people believe in to give them hope and mitigate grief.

or at least, we would not have quite so much cause for worry and anger.

we might possibly still disagree strongly about using those stories to determine moral orientation, but again, you have shown an inspiring and charming point of view.

and when you imply it is important to assess and examine a person’s beliefs, presumably you mean for integrity, i think you’re a little bit closer to atheism than you might realize :p

Speechie - 11 August 2011 01:39 PM

Sciguy, this makes sense to me, I can see what you are saying. I think one of my big questions here has been “why do you even care?”, but sure, in this context I understand why it’s important. If you are talking about stem cell research or something like that and religion puts up a big Don’t Even Go There wall between you and your opponents, then yes, that’s significant. You need to be able to discuss those issues in a way that is relatively fair and acceptable to humankind as a whole, even if you have people of many religions involved. That’s not the same thing as doing away with religion, of course, but it changes some of our societal standards surrounding it. 

I think that also highlights what I was saying before, however - if you do succeed in breaking down that barrier, you have to think long and hard about what standards you want to use in determining ethical standards in a debate style format. You can’t use logic to solve everything, human society demands standards such as compassion.

I agree with most of what you say, Speechie, but can compassion not be based on logic? Are there not good objective reasons why we should care about each other? For example, if I care about you then you might care about me and we will both benefit.

Destination Immortality - 12 August 2011 09:33 AM

If all people with religion were as thoughtful as you (Speechie) i doubt atheists would have any problem with the concept of stories people believe in to give them hope and mitigate grief.

. . . mitigate grief or fear . . .

There’s a story about Spinoza:

Climbing to his apartment he passed an old charwoman.  She was struggling up the narrow staircase with a scuttle full of coal for his fireplace.  When the philosopher relieved her of the burden and paid her, she crossed herself and said, “Master, I’m not long for this world.  Is it true that when I die I will be in heaven with the angels?”  Spinoza looked at the charwoman’s worn face, her pallor and trembling hands.  He touched her head.  “Of course you will, my dear.  Bless you.  Of course you will be with the angels.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza  (notice the mention of Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan)

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I always get a little but confused when religious people ask how do atheists get their moral values.  My questions to them are; is moral behaviour in humans programmed, like a computer, by god, is a moral code to be found in some kind of personal revelation or is the moral code clearly defined in religious texts? I’m not being facetious I’d just like to understand the epistemic principle behind moral behaviour from the religious perspective. Can anybody shed some light on the issue?

I always get a little but confused when religious people ask how do atheists get their moral values.  My questions would be; are they programmed, like a computer, by god, are they to be found in some kind revalation or are they clearly defined in religious texts? I’m not being facetious I’d just like to understand the epistemic principle behind moral behaviour from the religious perspective. Can anybody shed some light on the issue?

Many (but not all) religious people believe that a person gets his/her morals from religious teaching.  i.e. Christians believe that we get our morals from the Bible (and by association, Jesus/God).  If you don’t believe in Jesus/God and don’t believe in the Bible, then you obviously can’t be a moral person.  This is why so many religious people thinks atheists are immoral people (that, and that’s what their religious books tell them about us).

Obviously, it’s total BS, but that’s where the thinking comes from.

And couldn’t that be just one of the reasons that we need organisations like Project-Reason!

Dispater - 14 October 2011 04:55 AM

And couldn’t that be just one of the reasons that we need organisations like Project-Reason!

Absolutely!