samy_73 - 11 July 2011 03:18 PM

allow me to say that
brothers and sisters, peace to you
it was a very nice discussions with you tonight
i have to sleep now
have a calm night

And you as well.

Samy :

It’s one thing to do a lot of talking and another thing to say something. Many “peaceful souls ” here love to talk and consider themselves intellectuals, but they spend so much time examining every leaf and every tree, and trying to sound like deep thinkers they forget to notice what the forest looks like.

Some old buzzard here said something about nobody here agreeing with me. That is true or not, according to how many here are respectful of the facts . Every religion seems to have a great reverence for the truth, or so they claim. Well, I myself ,need the truth, or at least to look for it, to be satisfied. Of course, there’s always that argument over what “the truth” is. What to do to find it ? A good place to start is by going for the facts, and giving respect to them. Is there an argument about that ?

Almost everyone on this forum has expressed disapproval of Islam, and spoken negatively about it . Most of them feel negative about every religion, and that’s one reason they are here on this atheist website. It isn’t just me who is turned off by Islam, so you should recognize that as an unfair remark. I have been here for about 3 years and there is an awful lot of negativity about Islam. I am no more extremist than any other person who understand that religion, but I may come across that way because of my writing style .

So who understands it ? I suppose you figure it is Muslims themselves who can boast that honor. Most Mormons feel the same way about their religion. And they more or less inherit it, because it is inherited from one generation to the other, and that’s what happens with becoming a Muslim also, isn’t it ? As the bough is bent, so grows the twig . The trouble is, you can not truly understand anything unless you have perspective on it. And the first thing you have to do is think objectively. YOU CAN NEVER find the truth without looking at the other side of the coin. In other words, being objective. My experiance with the Mormon religion worked that way. If I hadn’t questioned it, and found it’s faults, I never would have gotten away from it.

When it comes to Islam, it is a MAN’S religion. It caters to, gives privilege to, understanding to, and power to MEN , so when men get to hearing criticism of Islam they have a hard time believing it is anything but good and an advantage to them. Did you ever stop and think how women feel about it ? Men seem to think if they are happy with something, naturally their women just must be satisfied too. It’s that way in marriage and a lot of situations. But a good religion is good not because of beautiful and often said prayers, or philosophy . Even the worst religions have those .

Beautiful Mosques or churches, beautiful prayers, music, singing,clothes, rituals, and professions of reverance to “God” do not make a good religion or fulfill a human being either .

Please don’t be fooled, btw, with all the “soft” and “respectful ” words many on this forum have oozed all over you. What they are doing is humoring you to impress you and , actually , everyone else. They have no more respect for you than they have any other person who is spellbound by a religion, and they think religion in general is for chumps. And both you and these “respecting” forum posters are playing one another like a violin.

Well, my style is straightforward, and yes, blunt . I will tell you without any pretences what I have learned, and what I see. I don’t know you personally, so you may be a very nice fellow. Still, I can not accept your religion, but I am listening. So far I have not heard anything that convinced me that Islam is acceptable. Have you yet dealt with the facts ?

Fair enough, Mr. Samy. We did not answer your questions either. My head is still spinning from them.

You say, a married women with freedom will be an adulteress who gives you aids. Where will she get it? From other adulteresses? Isn’t the wife at equal risk from the husband’s possible adultery? What’s the difference?

You describe an entirely different concept of women than I have. It is disturbing.

Islam might make sense if you have an Islamic view of reality. Without such a view, it seems like a limit on everyone’s freedom, especially women’s.

Can you hear yourself making the same claims as the Catholics?

I think with regard to samy, and also Brother Mario, IAM, and others of similar ilk (including some atheists) the following quote is relevant (BHG might also have a comment since he’s studied Chinese history and thought): “The Chinese classics…, the Classic of Documents, the Shu Ching; the Classic of Odes (or Songs), the Shi Ching; and the Classic of Change, the I Ching… make a different man.  It was important for the Chinese to read and memorize the classics.  To memorize them was not to learn data, but to exercise all the quality of the mind.  When all this data was memorized totally, the quality of the mind changed.  Memorizing the classics was an exercise that filled the mind completely in the sense of establishing total control over it.  In the moment that the mind has achieved the internal comprehension of all the memorized data, it has achieved maturity and knowledge.  The man who had this knowledge could be trusted, and went to the service of others.”  In Islam, in the madrasas, the standard education is memorization of the Koran, with the same effect.  The material, if it is comprehensive in terms of the conditions of life in the world and in society, produces a certain sort of individual, an cultured and encultured individual (we all are similarly bound by our own culture, although it has overcome us in more subtle ways than simply memorizing a defining text or texts).  Thus, for example, Idris Shah’s comment that a person attempting to become a Sufi by studying and following medieval dervish manuals, could at best end up as an exemplary medieval gentleman.  As I see it, that is why there needs to be a continual interaction between conservative and radical elements, both in an individual and in society, the former attempting to preserve the cultural gains we’ve made and the latter attempting to reform those things that no longer fit the conditions of current life and so need changing.  I think that one of the main problems with Islam is that it has not yet (a) separated out the religions from the cultural, so that antiquated cultural practices are continued under the guise of religion; and (b) it has not found a way to function well in a secular world.  Fundamentalists Christians are in the same boat.

True , culture and religion are two separate things , there are obvious overlapping elements .

I think it is part of Samys culture to speak with respect , so if we are to communicate with him , our usual brash , forthright approach might just reinforce his prejudice .

Lets not let our own prejudice be against his culture even when disagreeing with his religion ..

I would like to understand him and understand why he is here on this forum . If it’s for the same reasons as B.M. then I will be turned off ,but if it is a genuine search for knowledge then why not engage with him and get past the dogma he is entrenched in.

1st, Thanks for that, but how to prove tolerance if there is no different opinion?
One of the main principles in my religion is “you have your religion and I have mine”, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.”
Say what ever you like, but give me the chance to defend my self!

2nd, in fact I’m not professional in chatting, it’s a new hobby for me. I thought the atheist who uses his brain, and science more than any others, but many of them are defending and only defending the “NO GOD” while attacking and only attacking any other belief.

sheba - 11 July 2011 07:15 PM

Samy :
there’s always that argument over what “the truth” is. What to do to find it ? A good place to start is by going for the facts, and giving respect to them. Is there an argument about that ?
?

What I understand from that you like to seek the truth. If you are so, then accept that advice from your old/little brother. Don’t be the judge, attorney and the defense in the same time. Be and only be the fair judge, let Moslems speak about their belifs, feelings (not any other sourses)
” the woman is considered knowledgeable while seeking knowledge, but when she think she became knowledgeable then she is ignorant”

quote author=“sheba” date=“1310454946”]Samy :

. My experiance with the Mormon religion worked that way. If I hadn’t questioned it, and found it’s faults, I never would have gotten away from it.

We are not Mormon, Catholic, protestants,….we are who tell what we are. What is your experience with Moslems? give the Molems the same opportunity. Check your fairness! Have you ever been to any Islamic center, or Masjeed? I’m sure they don’t bit!!! I heard too, they have a good tea.  Go and have their defense as you are a “fair judge”

quote author=“sheba” date=“1310454946”]Samy :

When it comes to Islam, it is a MAN’S religion. It caters to, gives privilege to, understanding to, and power to MEN ,

?

Absolutely wrong. In fact what I know what Islam take care most is the family, that small company, and in the second place the children, and then the man and woman equally and finally the whole society. Of course with out big steps between each layer.
The woman have all the rights like the man, all education levels and all careers and all positions in the country. Although, only the position of the head of the country is disputable, some countries don’t allow that and some do like Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh,……
I can give you some examples, where the women had advantages over men, “in marriage”

quote author=“sheba” date=“1310454946”]Samy :

Did you ever stop and think how women feel about it?

I did many, many times, you who have to do so! (as a fair judge). In fact it will be easer for you than Dennis, the Moslem woman will be more free with a woman. Let’s do it like that, monitor any Moslem woman the color you like (white, black or in between), when the chance come. “hey you freeze!!” what do you think about ….and …….., and your head cover, Hegab, too

quote author=“sheba” date=“1310454946”]Samy :

Well, my style is straightforward, and yes, blunt . I will tell you without any pretences what I have learned, and what I see. I don’t know you personally, so you may be a very nice fellow. Still, I can not accept your religion, but I am listening. So far I have not heard anything that convinced me that Islam is acceptable. Have you yet dealt with the facts ?

It may be because you wonna be so!!
Ok, sister I’ll give you the secrete list why I’m Moslem, and you choose what What kind of evidences do you prefer, (using the fair Judge principle, sister)
1.  The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran
2.  The Great Challenge to Produce One Chapter, Like the Chapters of the Holy Quran
3.  Three challenges about creation,
4.  The challenge to get any contradictions or wrong information
5.  Biblical Prophecies on the Advent of Muhammad the Prophet of Islam
6.  The Verses in the Quran That Mention Future Events Which Later Came to Pass
7.  Miracles Performed by the Prophet Muhammad
8.  The great personality and Simple Life of Muhammad
9.  The Phenomenal steady and stable Growth of Islam
10.  the truth is what the enemies witnessed for you

finally, “let be no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.”

have a nice day

Nhoj Morley - 11 July 2011 08:15 PM

Fair enough, Mr. Samy. We did not answer your questions either. My head is still spinning from them.

You say, a married women with freedom will be an adulteress who gives you aids. Where will she get it? From other adulteresses? Isn’t the wife at equal risk from the husband’s possible adultery? What’s the difference?

You describe an entirely different concept of women than I have. It is disturbing.

Islam might make sense if you have an Islamic view of reality. Without such a view, it seems like a limit on everyone’s freedom, especially women’s.

Can you hear yourself making the same claims as the Catholics?

peace to you Nhoj,
The quisetion was
“If I’m working far away, scarifying many basics, to provide my wife the options she once dreamed to have, not only the basics, and I gave here all here rights. And then find here practicing adultery, and gaining sexual diseases and AIDS. And so transferring that to me to suffer all my life!
I don’t like that, do you??????????

the Quistion is vise versa too” if she kept herself clean, chaste and pure while her husband was practicing adultery, and gained sexual diseases and AIDS. And so transferring that to here to suffer all here life! Is she would like that?????????

is that te kind of life which will be happy???????

Kudos to all members who have the heroic patience and forebearance to try to make the BMs and Samy’s of this world see reason. I can try up to a point (as I did with BM) but in the end, when I see so little hope, as in BM’s and the present case, I must demur and leave it to others.

Bonne courage!!

Samy’s written English is a considerable problem for me, too often I’ve not the foggiest what he’s writing.  He seems to be restricted to Islamic text statements, I see little of his own judgment apart from those, and they’re just cited as some kind of proof unquestionable. It is I think worth some more effort to try and engage this man, he has after all ventured into a hostile ground with an unfamiliar language and for that he deserves some respect.  Unlike BM, he has not engaged in sanctimonious condemnations, at least as far as I can tell.

I agree, Dennis. As long as he’s prepared to discuss rather than just be a talking koran then it probably worth engaging him. But there does come a point….

Die fröhliche Wissenschaft - 12 July 2011 07:06 AM

I agree, Dennis. As long as he’s prepared to discuss rather than just be a talking koran then it probably worth engaging him. But there does come a point….

My point is approaching rapidly.  But let’s see what he does.

It may be because you wonna be so!!
Ok, sister I’ll give you the secrete list why I’m Moslem, and you choose what What kind of evidences do you prefer, (using the fair Judge principle, sister)
1.  The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran
2.  The Great Challenge to Produce One Chapter, Like the Chapters of the Holy Quran
3.  Three challenges about creation,
4.  The challenge to get any contradictions or wrong information
5.  Biblical Prophecies on the Advent of Muhammad the Prophet of Islam
6.  The Verses in the Quran That Mention Future Events Which Later Came to Pass
7.  Miracles Performed by the Prophet Muhammad
8.  The great personality and Simple Life of Muhammad
9.  The Phenomenal steady and stable Growth of Islam
10.  the truth is what the enemies witnessed for you

Can you cite any reasons that re not just a list of religious claims?

Dennis Campbell - 12 July 2011 07:12 AM

It may be because you wonna be so!!
Ok, sister I’ll give you the secrete list why I’m Moslem, and you choose what What kind of evidences do you prefer, (using the fair Judge principle, sister)
1.  The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran
2.  The Great Challenge to Produce One Chapter, Like the Chapters of the Holy Quran
3.  Three challenges about creation,
4.  The challenge to get any contradictions or wrong information
5.  Biblical Prophecies on the Advent of Muhammad the Prophet of Islam
6.  The Verses in the Quran That Mention Future Events Which Later Came to Pass
7.  Miracles Performed by the Prophet Muhammad
8.  The great personality and Simple Life of Muhammad
9.  The Phenomenal steady and stable Growth of Islam
10.  the truth is what the enemies witnessed for you

Can you cite any reasons that re not just a list of religious claims?

It is a list of religious claims, and at least one point is an oxymoron: there is no such thing as a scientific miracle: if it is scientific it is not a miracle, if it is a miracle it is something that is at least currently lacking in scientific explanation.  Also, point 3, challenges about creation, is a statement of belief rather than a reason to believe unless one is already a believer.  To be respectful, samy has been indoctrinated into Islam, and that’s fine as far as it goes.  I wish him the best and may he live a life in accord with his beliefs; but, what he needs to accomplish is an understanding of the nature of a path of knowledge (in contrast to one of faith).  Don’t worry, samy, this would not lead you to abandon your religion, but you would become aware of how you had acquired it and realize that continuing to follow it was a matter of personal choice rather than the conditioning and brainwashing you’ve received from your society.  That would make you a better Muslim, rather than just a robot.

burt - 12 July 2011 07:34 AM

Dennis Campbell - 12 July 2011 07:12 AM

: there is no such thing as a scientific miracle: if it is scientific it is not a miracle, if it is a miracle it is something that is at least currently lacking in scientific explanation.  .

Peace to you,
You may be right without considering the time factor “t [sec.]” . But if we consider the time, how to explain that a man in the middle of a desert 1430 years ago tells some “scientific facts” which just discovered in the 20th century??? 
Is it a Superstition? or Luck? or   miracle?

Good night, Samy. And all. Peace be with you.  May the fresh air of reason wash over you and bring you joy till the end of your days. Amen. Thus sayeth… I dunno, someone…