Project Reason is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. The foundation draws on the talents of prominent and creative thinkers in a wide range of disciplines to encourage critical thinking and erode the influence of dogmatism, superstition, and bigotry in our world.
Case 1. Is mental freedom possible right where we stand?
Is it possible for the mind to see past darting, restless thoughts to observe, without analysis, the actual state of the body as a whole? (including the tendency of thoughts to start darting).
Is it possible to observe the inner manifestation (mental activity that names and identifies) such things as boredom, seeking, effort, anger, jealousy, compulsion, habit, etc. without actually indulging such mental states?
For example, in the case of boredom, can it be felt or experienced without naming it? Can anger be experienced without thoughts? (thoughts that explain or justify why one is angry).
Another way to observe this exercise, or experiment: You, the subject, are seething with jealousy (for example), and are about to open a bottle of wine and get ‘smashed’ to ease the pain or the angst, of this mental state. Bottle opener is in hand, the phone rings and a true love wants to know if you want to go out with them. The jealousy and wine are forgotten. Subject spruces up and goes out with friend. No problems. A great time.
What I’m looking at here is how we can be free, enjoying ourselves one minute, and mentally embroiled and miserable the next. Are we at the mercy of the mercurial nature of thoughts?
What I’m looking at here is how we can be free, enjoying ourselves one minute, and mentally embroiled and miserable the next. Are we at the mercy of the mercurial nature of thoughts?
Probably not, but if we separate ourselves from those thoughts, isn’t it at the cost of our ability to empathize? If I am capable of separating myself from my own suffering, then I am capable of separating myself from the suffering of others. I can say “I’m not going to let the pain in my left arm affect me”, but then I can also say “I’m not going to let the pain in that child affect me, either.” Generally, Christian America is much more likely to provide assistance to another nation than Buddhist Thailand. Perhaps that is because while Thai Buddhists can be serene, American Christians can be compassionate.
When I’m anxious or upset, I go onto my computer. While I’m on it, I can almost totally detach from my emotions. I always assumed this was because the mind is only capable of one thought at a time. If I’m thinking about what’s on the internet, then I’m not thinking about my problems. The emotions are caused by the tthoughts. At least, that’s my observation.
What I’m looking at here is how we can be free, enjoying ourselves one minute, and mentally embroiled and miserable the next. Are we at the mercy of the mercurial nature of thoughts?
Probably not, but if we separate ourselves from those thoughts, isn’t it at the cost of our ability to empathize? If I am capable of separating myself from my own suffering, then I am capable of separating myself from the suffering of others. I can say “I’m not going to let the pain in my left arm affect me”, but then I can also say “I’m not going to let the pain in that child affect me, either.” Generally, Christian America is much more likely to provide assistance to another nation than Buddhist Thailand. Perhaps that is because while Thai Buddhists can be serene, American Christians can be compassionate.
Now that’s a faulty analogy if I’ve ever heard one. Perhaps it’s because Buddhist Thailand is not even a developed country. I’m pretty sure Christian Guatemala isn’t exactly the alms-giving country either. Besides, what this about “compassionate Christians, and serene Buddhists?” On this note, I’m fairly sure that the Dalai Lama is serene and compassionate; more so than any Christian I’ve ever heard of. IMO, only Mother Theresa can actually compete with the Dalai Lama, but she definitely loses due to the smaller scope of her works. How about you find me a Christian Dalai Lama?
Jkapp: only Mother Theresa can actually compete with the Dalai Lama, but she definitely loses due to the smaller scope of her works. How about you find me a Christian Dalai Lama?
Mother Teresa will do. Created Missions of Charity, which exist in almost every country of the World, including US. Inspired zillions of people with her good works, speeches, and books written about her. Worked from dawn to dusk.
I like the Dalai Lama, but, he’s got a darned good life…..goes on speaking tours, writes books, sits in silence. Never had to pay a bill in his life, everyone fawns over him (well, except the Chinese) and he wears loose fitting clothes all day. No wonder he’s always smiling!
Jkapp: only Mother Theresa can actually compete with the Dalai Lama, but she definitely loses due to the smaller scope of her works. How about you find me a Christian Dalai Lama?
Mother Teresa will do. Created Missions of Charity, which exist in almost every country of the World, including US. Inspired zillions of people with her good works, speeches, and books written about her. Worked from dawn to dusk.
I like the Dalai Lama, but, he’s got a darned good life…..goes on speaking tours, writes books, sits in silence. Never had to pay a bill in his life, everyone fawns over him (well, except the Chinese) and he wears loose fitting clothes all day. No wonder he’s always smiling!
What’s he speak about, what are his books about? and yes he sits in silence because he’s “serene.” And everyone doesn’t fawn over Mother Teresa? She also could have easily worn lose fitting clothes. She didn’t smile because she wasn’t “serene”; both are compassionate, extremely so, but the Dalai Lama has a wider scope. The Dalai Lama meets with every religious leader possible, and talks about doing what Mother Teresa did no matter who you are or what you believe. He is the embodiment, I think, of tolerance. The Dalai Lama’s era has not passed, considering he’s still alive and kicking.
JKapp:What’s he speak about, what are his books about? and yes he sits in silence because he’s “serene.” And everyone doesn’t fawn over Mother Teresa? She also could have easily worn lose fitting clothes. She didn’t smile because she wasn’t “serene”; both are compassionate, extremely so, but the Dalai Lama has a wider scope. The Dalai Lama meets with every religious leader possible, and talks about doing what Mother Teresa did no matter who you are or what you believe. He is the embodiment, I think, of tolerance. The Dalai Lama’s era has not passed, considering he’s still alive and kicking.
The Dalai Lama is serene because he doesn’t have a worry in the world. I’d be serene too, if I led his life. He goes from one cushion to another. No wife to bitch at him, no children dependent on him, no dog to take to the vet. At least Mother Teresa was in the trenches. She didn’t become famous until after she wiped away a lot of pus and feces and kissed a bunch of lepers.
I wonder if the Dalai Lama wipes his own ass?
It’s so much fun to tease you, JKapp….but, really, the Dalai has a totally “unreal” life. He’s protected, secure, disengaged from the messiness of the world; all he has to do is make"enlightened” comments. Hey, give me that job and I’d be just as wonderful as he is. Well, maybe. He’s had a great deal more time to hone his message. I have to go to work every day.
PS. I agee with you; I thought E-curb’s comments were pretty lame. Typical Christian superficial and stereotypical understanding of Buddhism. For the first time, his prejudices are showing. Sorry, Ecurb, we so often agree, but not on this topic.
What I’m looking at here is how we can be free, enjoying ourselves one minute, and mentally embroiled and miserable the next. Are we at the mercy of the mercurial nature of thoughts?
Probably not, but if we separate ourselves from those thoughts, isn’t it at the cost of our ability to empathize? If I am capable of separating myself from my own suffering, then I am capable of separating myself from the suffering of others. I can say “I’m not going to let the pain in my left arm affect me”, but then I can also say “I’m not going to let the pain in that child affect me, either.” Generally, Christian America is much more likely to provide assistance to another nation than Buddhist Thailand. Perhaps that is because while Thai Buddhists can be serene, American Christians can be compassionate.
If you actually separate from your emotions you will observe (or, the observation will occur since it isn’t the egotistic you that will be doing the observing) that at bottom the emotions are non-local physical patterns of kinesthetic and viscero-autonomic sensation. Following along on this, the observation may occur that these patterns, and the thoughts that accompany them are both manifestations of the same underlying processes. Recognition of this can lead to an understanding that the same processes operate in others resulting in an increased sensation of compassion. Separating yourself from this sensation awareness of something more universal can arise and lead to a state of dissolution into immediate presence.
Is it possible for the mind to see past darting, restless thoughts to observe, without analysis, the actual state of the body as a whole? (including the tendency of thoughts to start darting).
[...]
What I’m looking at here is how we can be free, enjoying ourselves one minute, and mentally embroiled and miserable the next. Are we at the mercy of the mercurial nature of thoughts?
I have to give Buddhism credit for knowing more about meta-cognition, attention, introspection, and exotic mental states than anybody else in the world. But I can’t breathe in the atmosphere of “spirituality,” tradition, and authority they live in (although they don’t all embrace that equally).
As for your question, yes the vast majority are at the mercy of their thoughts because they have no cognitive training or discipline. They have no meta-cognitive skills. Such skills are not necessarily hard to develop but few ever encounter a venue for such training, and most of the venues that exist come with spiritual or mystical strings attached. We need to get meta-cognitive skill development out of the cult and into the classroom.
Burt: If you actually separate from your emotions you will observe (or, the observation will occur since it isn’t the egotistic you that will be doing the observing) that at bottom the emotions are non-local physical patterns of kinesthetic and viscero-autonomic sensation. Following along on this, the observation may occur that these patterns, and the thoughts that accompany them are both manifestations of the same underlying processes. Recognition of this can lead to an understanding that the same processes operate in others resulting in an increased sensation of compassion. Separating yourself from this sensation awareness of something more universal can arise and lead to a state of dissolution into immediate presence.
Might this not be Agape? Is there such a thing as Agape?
When I am moved emotionally by thinking or being with afflicted people…..it usually goes like this.
1. “Oh my God! That poor person! What can I do to help? I want so much to ease their burdens!”
2. ”Oh my God! I sure am glad that I’m not afflicted like that.
3. “Oh my God! What if I do get afflicted like that!
4. “Oh my God, I don’t want to see this afflicted person! It makes me feel threatened. It scares and depresses me.
5. “Oh my God! I am such a creep! How could I be so callous! I don’t care how I feel, “I SHALL HELP THIS PERSON!”
6. “Oh my God! I’m so depressed. I dread seeing this person. How can God allow such things!”
7. “Fuck God”
8. “Fuck the doomed…. Someone else can help them. I can’t cope with their misery.”
9. “Fuck the Universe”
10. I think I’ll go post on Project Reason.
Now, please tell me how an enlightened person’s brain responds to the suffering of the innocent.. Vitamin D? Would fish oil help?
1. Poor fish. Hooks in their mouths, gasping for air, flipflopping in death throes at the bottom of a boat.
2 I’m glad I’m not a fish.
3. What if I ever suffer pain like that? Pulled out of my home, tortured, gasping for air…
4. I shall not go fishing ever again. Maybe I won’t eat fish!
5. You creep! You should join an organization to help fish!
6. I dread seeing sick and dead fish. How can God allow such things? The whole planet is based on murder!
7. Fuck God!
8. Fuck doomed fish. Let someone else help them
9. Fuck the Universe.
10. I think I’ll take some fish oit, then see what’s happening on PR.
Jkapp: only Mother Theresa can actually compete with the Dalai Lama, but she definitely loses due to the smaller scope of her works. How about you find me a Christian Dalai Lama?
Mother Teresa will do. Created Missions of Charity, which exist in almost every country of the World, including US. Inspired zillions of people with her good works, speeches, and books written about her. Worked from dawn to dusk.
I like the Dalai Lama, but, he’s got a darned good life…..goes on speaking tours, writes books, sits in silence. Never had to pay a bill in his life, everyone fawns over him (well, except the Chinese) and he wears loose fitting clothes all day. No wonder he’s always smiling!
You guys haven’t read Hitchens on Mother T, have you?
She raised unaccounted-for millions of dollars, very little of which actually went towards improving the lives of impoverished people; in fact, she believed that the poor and the dying should stay that way, as an example for the rest of us and to give people like her someone to minister to.
Lots of people work dawn-to-dusk. And she “inspired zillions of people”? Could you quantify that a little more precisely?
There are many, many practicing Christians who actually DO do good work and make the world a better place; you haven’t heard of them because they tend not to be holier-than-thou fundamentalists, and they tend not to be camera-seeking attention whores.
Burt: If you actually separate from your emotions you will observe (or, the observation will occur since it isn’t the egotistic you that will be doing the observing) that at bottom the emotions are non-local physical patterns of kinesthetic and viscero-autonomic sensation. Following along on this, the observation may occur that these patterns, and the thoughts that accompany them are both manifestations of the same underlying processes. Recognition of this can lead to an understanding that the same processes operate in others resulting in an increased sensation of compassion. Separating yourself from this sensation awareness of something more universal can arise and lead to a state of dissolution into immediate presence.
Might this not be Agape? Is there such a thing as Agape?
When I am moved emotionally by thinking or being with afflicted people…..it usually goes like this.
1. “Oh my God! That poor person! What can I do to help? I want so much to ease their burdens!”
2. ”Oh my God! I sure am glad that I’m not afflicted like that.
3. “Oh my God! What if I do get afflicted like that!
4. “Oh my God, I don’t want to see this afflicted person! It makes me feel threatened. It scares and depresses me.
5. “Oh my God! I am such a creep! How could I be so callous! I don’t care how I feel, “I SHALL HELP THIS PERSON!”
6. “Oh my God! I’m so depressed. I dread seeing this person. How can God allow such things!”
7. “Fuck God”
8. “Fuck the doomed…. Someone else can help them. I can’t cope with their misery.”
9. “Fuck the Universe”
10. I think I’ll go post on Project Reason.
Now, please tell me how an enlightened person’s brain responds to the suffering of the innocent.. Vitamin D? Would fish oil help?
1. Poor fish. Hooks in their mouths, gasping for air, flipflopping in death throes at the bottom of a boat.
2 I’m glad I’m not a fish.
3. What if I ever suffer pain like that? Pulled out of my home, tortured, gasping for air…
4. I shall not go fishing ever again. Maybe I won’t eat fish!
5. You creep! You should join an organization to help fish!
6. I dread seeing sick and dead fish. How can God allow such things? The whole planet is based on murder!
7. Fuck God!
8. Fuck doomed fish. Let someone else help them
9. Fuck the Universe.
10. I think I’ll take some fish oit, then see what’s happening on PR.
Too many thoughts
Bouncing about
Medusa mind
Paralyzing doubt
No time to find
Duties and oughts
Medusa mind
Too many thoughts
Burt: If you actually separate from your emotions you will observe (or, the observation will occur since it isn’t the egotistic you that will be doing the observing) that at bottom the emotions are non-local physical patterns of kinesthetic and viscero-autonomic sensation. Following along on this, the observation may occur that these patterns, and the thoughts that accompany them are both manifestations of the same underlying processes. Recognition of this can lead to an understanding that the same processes operate in others resulting in an increased sensation of compassion. Separating yourself from this sensation awareness of something more universal can arise and lead to a state of dissolution into immediate presence.
Might this not be Agape? Is there such a thing as Agape?
When I am moved emotionally by thinking or being with afflicted people…..it usually goes like this.
1. “Oh my God! That poor person! What can I do to help? I want so much to ease their burdens!”
2. ”Oh my God! I sure am glad that I’m not afflicted like that.
3. “Oh my God! What if I do get afflicted like that!
4. “Oh my God, I don’t want to see this afflicted person! It makes me feel threatened. It scares and depresses me.
5. “Oh my God! I am such a creep! How could I be so callous! I don’t care how I feel, “I SHALL HELP THIS PERSON!”
6. “Oh my God! I’m so depressed. I dread seeing this person. How can God allow such things!”
7. “Fuck God”
8. “Fuck the doomed…. Someone else can help them. I can’t cope with their misery.”
9. “Fuck the Universe”
10. I think I’ll go post on Project Reason.
Now, please tell me how an enlightened person’s brain responds to the suffering of the innocent.. Vitamin D? Would fish oil help?
1. Poor fish. Hooks in their mouths, gasping for air, flipflopping in death throes at the bottom of a boat.
2 I’m glad I’m not a fish.
3. What if I ever suffer pain like that? Pulled out of my home, tortured, gasping for air…
4. I shall not go fishing ever again. Maybe I won’t eat fish!
5. You creep! You should join an organization to help fish!
6. I dread seeing sick and dead fish. How can God allow such things? The whole planet is based on murder!
7. Fuck God!
8. Fuck doomed fish. Let someone else help them
9. Fuck the Universe.
10. I think I’ll take some fish oit, then see what’s happening on PR.
Too many thoughts
Bouncing about
Medusa mind
Paralyzing doubt
No time to find
Duties and oughts
Medusa mind
Too many thoughts
Before getting to Burt’s response, I was wondering, ‘Is Saralynn a cynic like Traces Elk, or is this her way of illustrating, or demonstrating the darting mind mentioned in the OP?
Q: Do most people identify with the darting mind, with their mercurial thoughts? For example, the expression, “I am angry.”
Is it possible to observe one’s own thoughts to see if they really are the me?
As a science, Zen is saying, “Show me your original face.”
Is this anathema to most of us? “What! You want me to be a vegetable? You want me to be nothing? You want me to let down my Jesus shield so that the devil can attack me?!”
The joke, or irony is that our original face is appearing, off and on, throughout the day. It’s called an obsession if we can’t let something go. Also, as Saralynn mentioned yesterday, we can only focus on one thing at a time. No talking on the phone while driving! It’s the law.
Some of us bungie jump to shake the darting mind. Some drive a race car at 250 mph. Some drain a bottle of Chablis. Some howl and bark like dogs at a fundamentalist service. As Poor Richard mentioned above, we didn’t have a class in school that told us anything useful about the darting mind.
As a science, Zen is saying, “Show me your original face.”
That assumes that we have an “original face.” Big assumption. If I am the product of the culture in which I am born, I have no “face” other than this one. If I can rise above my culture and free myself of its constraints, it is not my “original” face that I am showing, but a new one.
As a science, Zen is saying, “Show me your original face.”
That assumes that we have an “original face.” Big assumption. If I am the product of the culture in which I am born, I have no “face” other than this one. If I can rise above my culture and free myself of its constraints, it is not my “original” face that I am showing, but a new one.
Most ordinary, “normal” people have sub-clinical cases of dissociative identity disorder (multiple personality disorder). They have not two faces but many, resulting from different configurations of brain networks and areas being active at different times. In my opinion there is no one “original face.” With proper practice, one can develop “faces” (selves or “I"s) that are progressively “higher” in cognitive function and integration and which become more transcendent and intelligent as more of the brain is recruited and trained. This is the way to understand the “higher power” (and perhaps the “original face” as well); but it is not a fixed, permanent configuration as much as a configuration that can be “summoned” with the appropriate effort after it has been developed via the proper practice. If this were taught to children at the appropriate developmental stages they would probably be 10 times smarter by the time they reached adulthood.
The way we treat our childrens’ brains is the cognitive equivalent of foot binding, neck lengthening, and such among native peoples.
S.I. Hayakawa (1906 – 1992): “If you see in any given situation only what everyone else can see, you can be said to be so much a representative of your culture that you are a victim of it.”
“Azande, in deploying their… beliefs, take as much account of experience as do modern Westerners. At the same time, there are some important differences. For whereas Azande seem to spend most of their time… defending beliefs about the causes of sickness and misfortune against experience, Western medical scientists seem more ready to expose equivalent beliefs to the possibly destructive effects of experience16.”
