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Goldenhawk786, AKA “GH,” is a poster I once labeled as “dangerous.” He is indeed that, but not because of the ignorant, bigoted, blindly opinionated, arrogant and self-righteous man he expresses himself as being. But only because he represents an ideology held by some large but unknown number of people who’re a subset of the Muslim population that in total numbers as many as 1.57 billion people. That’s somewhere around 25% of the earth’s total population. How many express the same ideology as GH, I do not know. As an individual, GH is to most of us a pathetic curiosity.
Some of the tenets of the ideology expressed so clearly by GH, which is called a “religion,” but which is more of a political or social ideology include the following, as best I understand it. All of these of course “authorized” by “Allah,” which means they are held to be unquestionable by the followers.
Peoples’ role in life is strictly defined and constrained, with male and female being in a Supordinate/Subordinate relationship. Basically, women serve men.
Political power is vested in theocrats who are not elected by self-appointed by the extent to which they express their allegiance and obedience to Islam Law and Allah. Mere elected officials are subservient to these theocrats. Ultimately, one man sits at the head of this political structure and is unchallengeable in his authority. This is a vertically structured authoritarian system maintained by force, not elections.
Education is valued, insofar as it is theological education. Secular education presents a dilemma, since although the technological fruits of that education are of value, the kind of thinking and reasoning requisite are not held to be valuable. Freedom of inquiry, skepticism, the entire scientific method that are prerequisites to western secular education are antithetical to the governing principles of the Islamic theocracy. In all fairness, that dilemma also exists in earlier Christian ideology, and those conflicts are still seen in current western societies in such issues as stem cell research, genetic manipulations, birth control and other issues, but in the west, the influence of fundamental Christian theology has diminished considerably.
Civil freedoms that we at least hold as ideals if not fully realized, such as “freedom of speech,” freedom of assembly; of the practice or non-practice of religion, lack of discrimination based on gender or ethnicity; the dominance of secular law over theological law; all these and more are not held as being of value or merit in the kind of political ideology that GH represents and expresses.I’m still “evolving” in my understanding of some of the implications of the kind of ideology expressed and represented by GH. I welcome other’s more detailed knowledge and clarifications. That is what this thread is intended to do: to expand on those implications.
I do disagree with one of T.’s comments recently, that GH does not represent a “real” Muslim. He does, IMO, they’re too many others like G who whack off people’s heads and blow themselves up; who threaten death to Dutch cartoonists, or women who have sex outside of the permission of their father, to think that GH is some rarity.
GH is not stupid, he is not “ignorant,” except of western secular and science paradigms; he is not “delusional,” he shares his “delusions” with too many others for it to be called a “delusion.” I’m just not sure how great a percentage people like GH represent. He is not “psychotic,” as far as I can gather in the sense of confused and disorganized. BTW, for any inclined to charge that I’m being abusive of a person here, I’m not. I am abuse of an ideology as I understand it at this point, and GH has kindly well expressed that ideology.
So, apart from or maybe in exception to what I’ve posted as a lead here, what are your expressed opinions as to the implications and character of the kind of ideology GH represents?
he is not “delusional,” he shares his “delusions” with too many others for it to be called a “delusion.”
I have to disagree here Dennis. Religious belief IMO is a delusion, by definition. It does not matter how many people have the same mental faculty. Numbers don’t change the definition.
From Websters-
‘delusion implies an inability to distinguish between what is real and what only seems to be real, often as the result of a disordered state of mind’
The beliefs in talking snakes, virgin births, resurrections of dead people back to life, fire breathing dragons, giant humans, concepts of heaven and hell etc., are delusional beliefs unsupported by evidence and reason.
Don’t you think GH has a real problem distinguishing between what is real, and what seems to be real?
There is an old saying, somewhat humerous imo, that says if one person is deluded he is considered insane, but if a lot of people are deluded they are considered religious.
It sounds like you are literally attempting to apply that here.
What other terminology can we use to call people who are convinced of believing the unbelievable? Gullible? Brainwashed? Mislead? Confused?
Apparently we dare not call them deluded, ignorant or stupid, although much of what they ‘believe ’ could be labeled as such.
Why don’t you believe that there was a talking snake in the garden of eden?
“If he only knew better”, if only society had educated him better and provided for all his needs, if only…..’
And there probably is some truth to that too GAD. Many factors going into fundamentalist religious belief. There have been evangelicals that have dropped faith and turned to reason through enlightenment and education, but for some people it seems an impossibility. My opinion has always been that their are physiological reasons why some people have an absolutist mindset and some people are more curious and open to knowledge. Perhaps a combination of someone who looks for absolutes and then is exposed to that exact thing through faith and belief in supernatural agency and out comes the fundamentalist on the other side.
People like Bro Mar and GH might just be those kinds of people, and all the psychological adjustment and therapy in the universe might not help them change their mindset.
he is not “delusional,” he shares his “delusions” with too many others for it to be called a “delusion.”
I have to disagree here Dennis. Religious belief IMO is a delusion, by definition. It does not matter how many people have the same mental faculty. Numbers don’t change the definition.
From Websters-
‘delusion implies an inability to distinguish between what is real and what only seems to be real, often as the result of a disordered state of mind’
The beliefs in talking snakes, virgin births, resurrections of dead people back to life, fire breathing dragons, giant humans, concepts of heaven and hell etc., are delusional beliefs unsupported by evidence and reason.
Don’t you think GH has a real problem distinguishing between what is real, and what seems to be real?
There is an old saying, somewhat humerous imo, that says if one person is deluded he is considered insane, but if a lot of people are deluded they are considered religious.
It sounds like you are literally attempting to apply that here.
What other terminology can we use to call people who are convinced of believing the unbelievable? Gullible? Brainwashed? Mislead? Confused?
Apparently we dare not call them deluded, ignorant or stupid, although much of what they ‘believe ’ could be labeled as such.
Why don’t you believe that there was a talking snake in the garden of eden?
Eud,
Sometimes you miss the forest for the trees. If 75%+ of the human race express some theistic beliefs or other, then by all means calling them delusional is useful and will immediately result in their ceasing such behavior. In the context of general theistic beliefs, delusional” has no usefulness.
Sometimes you miss the forest for the trees. If 75%+ of the human race express some theistic beliefs or other, then by all means calling them delusional is useful and will immediately rersult in their ceasing such behavior. In the context of general theistic beliefs, delusional” has no usefulness.
We are the forest. 70% of the Earth’s surface is covered by water (only 2.5% of that is potable); almost 1/3 of the Earth’s land surface is covered by desert. Thirty-one percent of Earth’s landmass is covered by forests or woodlands (excluding Antartica). Half of the forests that originally covered 48 percent of the Earth’s land surface are gone. Only one-fifth of the Earth’s original forests remain pristine and undisturbed.
If 75%+ of the human race express some theistic belief and are delusional, less than 25% of us have a grip on reality. Now, I can assess the state of humanity and understand the daunting task before us to protect ourselves from delusional theocratic rule ... but the odds don’t look so good because of man-induced (mostly delusional theists) global warming.
I have again failed to make my point, due apologies. “Delusional” is a somewhat useful concept in some clinical settings when a person expresses some powerful belief at marked variance from the general population that is associated with highly problematic behaviors. Even in those settings, the delusion is not much influenced by logical argument or reasoning. When this perjorative term is applied to 75% of the human race, it may be arguably valid, but also arguably useless in both understanding the beliefs or in influencing those beliefs.
Started a new thread intended to allow theists of whatever sort to comment, if they wish, on a few issues relating to civil governance that interests me. It seems to me that few of us care all that much about the sometimes arcane and obtuse endless discussions about theisms, though some sure do, but we’re more concerned over the impact of some theistic beliefs on everyday western society.
Anyway, thought I’d see where is anywhere that thread goes.
I have again failed to make my point, due apologies. “Delusional” is a somewhat useful concept in some clinical settings when a person expresses some powerful belief at marked variance from the general population that is associated with highly problematic behaviors. Even in those settings, the delusion is not much influenced by logical argument or reasoning. When this perjorative term is applied to 75% of the human race, it may be arguably valid, but also arguably useless in both understanding the beliefs or in influencing those beliefs.
Just raggin’ on ya, Dennis. We don’t care that identifying them as delusional will not much influence them by logical argument or reasoning anymore than identifying them as fuck-wits will, the term is for us from our perspective. We are the minority, a small one at that, therefore the distribution is skewed considerably ... our normal is not their normal, and reality is relatively fixed on its own. I’m going to do everything I can from sliding over or them forcing us into their deluded normal. Got that delusional theists?
As for your OP, I don’t know what to say, I get tongue-tied ... that’s how delusional they are (especially Muhawk), you almost can’t enter that world. “Down the rabbit hole” seems to be popular at the moment, but it still reminds me of the movie, “The Cell” w/Jennifer Lopez.
I have again failed to make my point, due apologies. “Delusional” is a somewhat useful concept in some clinical settings when a person expresses some powerful belief at marked variance from the general population that is associated with highly problematic behaviors. Even in those settings, the delusion is not much influenced by logical argument or reasoning. When this perjorative term is applied to 75% of the human race, it may be arguably valid, but also arguably useless in both understanding the beliefs or in influencing those beliefs.
Just raggin’ on ya, Dennis. We don’t care that identifying them as delusional will not much influence them by logical argument or reasoning anymore than identifying them as fuck-wits will, the term is for us from our perspective. We are the minority, a small one at that, therefore the distribution is skewed considerably ... our normal is not their normal, and reality is relatively fixed on its own. I’m going to do everything I can from sliding over or them forcing us into their deluded normal. Got that delusional theists?
As for your OP, I don’t know what to say, I get tongue-tied ... that’s how delusional they are (especially Muhawk), you almost can’t enter that world. “Down the rabbit hole” seems to be popular at the moment, but it still reminds me of the movie, “The Cell” w/Jennifer Lopez.
Dennis you failed to answer my question-why don’t you believe that there was a talking snake in the garden of eden, and what would you call a person that does believe that?
The percentage games are useless. If 70% of Americans claim to be Christians does that make Christianity true because those 70% believe it is?
You afford too much respect at times to those who believe things that are unbelievable.
Deluded is not so horrible of a term as you well know. It is just having strong beliefs in falshoods. Everybody is deluded about something at some point in their life. Will calling religous people ‘delude’ change their thoughts and behavior? Probably not, but perhaps once in a great while it might make a person think about it., Many religious people are deluded because of ignorance or because of being mislead. Is that so horrible of a thing? I think not. We are all ignorant about some things. How many American Christians have studied the history of religions, Theology, Mythology, Human history, etc.,? Very few. Perhaps thats why many they believe in falshoods. They are perhaps deluded because they are uninformed and mislead, not because they are insane, although there are probably some that are mentally challenged.
Did you read ‘The God Delusion’ by Dawkins? Your opinion of that work is?
Dennis you failed to answer my question-why don’t you believe that there was a talking snake in the garden of eden, and what would you call a person that does believe that?
The percentage games are useless. If 70% of Americans claim to be Christians does that make Christianity true because those 70% believe it is?
You afford too much respect at times to those who believe things that are unbelievable.
Deluded is not so horrible of a term as you well know. It is just having strong beliefs in falshoods. Everybody is deluded about something at some point in their life. Will calling religous people ‘delude’ change their thoughts and behavior? Probably not, but perhaps once in a great while it might make a person think about it., Many religious people are deluded because of ignorance or because of being mislead. Is that so horrible of a thing? I think not. We are all ignorant about some things. How many American Christians have studied the history of religions, Theology, Mythology, Human history, etc.,? Very few. Perhaps thats why many they believe in falshoods. They are perhaps deluded because they are uninformed and mislead, not because they are insane, although there are probably some that are mentally challenged.
Did you read ‘The God Delusion’ by Dawkins? Your opinion of that work is?
Eud,
It is not a matter of “too much respect,” it is a matter of acknowledging a reality I do not endorse nor like, but there’s little point IMO in harping on the “Delusional” term. After a point, that harping can be considered sanctimonious or condescending as well. I note on this forum that by far the bulk of posts are con or pro theism, which makes me wonder if we as “secularists” or whatever label you prefer, have anything else to talk about?
Dennis you failed to answer my question-why don’t you believe that there was a talking snake in the garden of eden, and what would you call a person that does believe that?
The percentage games are useless. If 70% of Americans claim to be Christians does that make Christianity true because those 70% believe it is?
You afford too much respect at times to those who believe things that are unbelievable.
Deluded is not so horrible of a term as you well know. It is just having strong beliefs in falshoods. Everybody is deluded about something at some point in their life. Will calling religous people ‘delude’ change their thoughts and behavior? Probably not, but perhaps once in a great while it might make a person think about it., Many religious people are deluded because of ignorance or because of being mislead. Is that so horrible of a thing? I think not. We are all ignorant about some things. How many American Christians have studied the history of religions, Theology, Mythology, Human history, etc.,? Very few. Perhaps thats why many they believe in falshoods. They are perhaps deluded because they are uninformed and mislead, not because they are insane, although there are probably some that are mentally challenged.
Did you read ‘The God Delusion’ by Dawkins? Your opinion of that work is?
Eud,
It is not a matter of “too much respect,” it is a matter of acknowledging a reality I do not endorse nor like, but there’s little point IMO in harping on the “Delusional” term. After a point, that harping can be considered sanctimonious or condescending as well. I note on this forum that by far the bulk of posts are con or pro theism, which makes me wonder if we as “secularists” or whatever label you prefer, have anything else to talk about?
It’s very important that you agree with eudemonia, Dennis. After all, his credentials in the field of psychology are impeccable and impressive. There is a great deal of peer pressure being exerted upon you to recognize this new diagnosis, so if you value your status among the forum intelligencia, you will give in.
Dennis you failed to answer my question-why don’t you believe that there was a talking snake in the garden of eden, and what would you call a person that does believe that?
The percentage games are useless. If 70% of Americans claim to be Christians does that make Christianity true because those 70% believe it is?
You afford too much respect at times to those who believe things that are unbelievable.
Deluded is not so horrible of a term as you well know. It is just having strong beliefs in falshoods. Everybody is deluded about something at some point in their life. Will calling religous people ‘delude’ change their thoughts and behavior? Probably not, but perhaps once in a great while it might make a person think about it., Many religious people are deluded because of ignorance or because of being mislead. Is that so horrible of a thing? I think not. We are all ignorant about some things. How many American Christians have studied the history of religions, Theology, Mythology, Human history, etc.,? Very few. Perhaps thats why many they believe in falshoods. They are perhaps deluded because they are uninformed and mislead, not because they are insane, although there are probably some that are mentally challenged.
Did you read ‘The God Delusion’ by Dawkins? Your opinion of that work is?
Eud,
It is not a matter of “too much respect,” it is a matter of acknowledging a reality I do not endorse nor like, but there’s little point IMO in harping on the “Delusional” term. After a point, that harping can be considered sanctimonious or condescending as well. I note on this forum that by far the bulk of posts are con or pro theism, which makes me wonder if we as “secularists” or whatever label you prefer, have anything else to talk about?
It’s very important that you agree with eudemonia, Dennis. After all, his credentials in the field of psychology are impeccable and impressive. There is a great deal of peer pressure being exerted upon you to recognize this new diagnosis, so if you value your status among the forum intelligencia, you will give in.
Bruce,
Yea, I know, one of my many deficiencies. I do not disagree with the constant harping the theistic beliefs meet, given the assumption that there is insufficient evidendial basis for those beliefs, the criteria that they ae “delusional.” My thought, repeatedly stated, is that this is a largely useless term when applied to 75% of the human population. We go nowhere when we then consider, what, that 75% of the human population are “crazy?” It seems to me more worthwhile to explore the possible “causes” or antecedent reasons common to most of humanity for such beliefs to be posited, than to merely apply a perjorative lablel and conclude that something has been accomplished.
I also do not care much about “jumping on the bandwagon” in order to be a part of any group. Of course it is nice to be so considered, that may be why a good many people endorse some religion, or other ideology, to be part of the social group. Being one of those relative few who are less motivated than most to “be accepted” by any group, and to be relatively comfortable by myself, “groupism” has less attraction. As for acceptance, the approval of my puppy is more important than that of most people.
Dennis you failed to answer my question-why don’t you believe that there was a talking snake in the garden of eden, and what would you call a person that does believe that?
The percentage games are useless. If 70% of Americans claim to be Christians does that make Christianity true because those 70% believe it is?
You afford too much respect at times to those who believe things that are unbelievable.
Deluded is not so horrible of a term as you well know. It is just having strong beliefs in falshoods. Everybody is deluded about something at some point in their life. Will calling religous people ‘delude’ change their thoughts and behavior? Probably not, but perhaps once in a great while it might make a person think about it., Many religious people are deluded because of ignorance or because of being mislead. Is that so horrible of a thing? I think not. We are all ignorant about some things. How many American Christians have studied the history of religions, Theology, Mythology, Human history, etc.,? Very few. Perhaps thats why many they believe in falshoods. They are perhaps deluded because they are uninformed and mislead, not because they are insane, although there are probably some that are mentally challenged.
Did you read ‘The God Delusion’ by Dawkins? Your opinion of that work is?
When I was 16, I really believed Shelly Miller would consider being my date to Homecoming. Despite the fact that I was a skinny, late-blooming, unathletic, unpopular, immature sophomore, and she was a gorgeous 18-year old senior varsity cheerleader, very popular, dated football players, and actually was Homecoming Queen that year.
But…but…she was nice to me, and even talked to me on the phone a few times so she MUST have liked me, right?
Dennis you failed to answer my question-why don’t you believe that there was a talking snake in the garden of eden, and what would you call a person that does believe that?
The percentage games are useless. If 70% of Americans claim to be Christians does that make Christianity true because those 70% believe it is?
You afford too much respect at times to those who believe things that are unbelievable.
Deluded is not so horrible of a term as you well know. It is just having strong beliefs in falshoods. Everybody is deluded about something at some point in their life. Will calling religous people ‘delude’ change their thoughts and behavior? Probably not, but perhaps once in a great while it might make a person think about it., Many religious people are deluded because of ignorance or because of being mislead. Is that so horrible of a thing? I think not. We are all ignorant about some things. How many American Christians have studied the history of religions, Theology, Mythology, Human history, etc.,? Very few. Perhaps thats why many they believe in falshoods. They are perhaps deluded because they are uninformed and mislead, not because they are insane, although there are probably some that are mentally challenged.
Did you read ‘The God Delusion’ by Dawkins? Your opinion of that work is?
When I was 16, I really believed Shelly Miller would consider being my date to Homecoming. Despite the fact that I was a skinny, late-blooming, unathletic, unpopular, immature sophomore, and she was a gorgeous 18-year old senior varsity cheerleader, very popular, dated football players, and actually was Homecoming Queen that year.
But…but…she was nice to me, and even talked to me on the phone a few times so she MUST have liked me, right?
THAT was some major-league delusion!
Not anymore major then the delusions of theists. Everyone engages in wishful thinking to some extent or the other, except me, I have no delusions.
Dennis you failed to answer my question-why don’t you believe that there was a talking snake in the garden of eden, and what would you call a person that does believe that?
The percentage games are useless. If 70% of Americans claim to be Christians does that make Christianity true because those 70% believe it is?
You afford too much respect at times to those who believe things that are unbelievable.
Deluded is not so horrible of a term as you well know. It is just having strong beliefs in falshoods. Everybody is deluded about something at some point in their life. Will calling religous people ‘delude’ change their thoughts and behavior? Probably not, but perhaps once in a great while it might make a person think about it., Many religious people are deluded because of ignorance or because of being mislead. Is that so horrible of a thing? I think not. We are all ignorant about some things. How many American Christians have studied the history of religions, Theology, Mythology, Human history, etc.,? Very few. Perhaps thats why many they believe in falshoods. They are perhaps deluded because they are uninformed and mislead, not because they are insane, although there are probably some that are mentally challenged.
Did you read ‘The God Delusion’ by Dawkins? Your opinion of that work is?
When I was 16, I really believed Shelly Miller would consider being my date to Homecoming. Despite the fact that I was a skinny, late-blooming, unathletic, unpopular, immature sophomore, and she was a gorgeous 18-year old senior varsity cheerleader, very popular, dated football players, and actually was Homecoming Queen that year.
But…but…she was nice to me, and even talked to me on the phone a few times so she MUST have liked me, right?
THAT was some major-league delusion!
Obviously, since I suspect the vast majority of adolescent males have like fantasies, you must all be nuts! Humm, come to think of it…....
