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Every since Dan Brown’s new book The Lost Symbol hit the stores and made him a million dollars overnight, “Freemasons” seems to be the newest buzz-word !
I read the book and I was really pleased; it was hard to put down and one of the things I liked best about it was that , while it was “thriller” fiction, it was also informative and the author has a talent for introspective thought…-sort of head-swimming , but gets you to thinking.
This time his fast-paced story is based on the prestigious Freemasons of Washington D.C. , and th certain intriguing secrets. ( I was there once and I want to go back; it was a learning experience esp. for a patriot like me )
I’ve been wondering just how many people realize how much the Freemasons contributed to our free and democratic lifestyle ? When they first came here America was a new world and a real opportunity to establish a different and Utopian society. The Masons were actually that type of organization, or maybe it is better said they aspired to be that way. It is interesting that their ideology sprang from a rebellion against a depressing atmosphere of religious oppression. The tyranny of the Catholic church and it’s domination of everything ;even the government ,was hard to live with.
While the Mason’s social guilds had been going on for centuries,it is not clear yet as to just exactly when they broke off from socializing as operators of the craft to become speculative members of a social order concerned with various interests. But around the Renaissance , while it has been considered a time of more or less rejuvenation, it was also a time when they still had witch hunts. Civilization needed that Renaissance enlightenment desperately.
Some citizens were very enthralled by the idea of a life free from the restrictions of religion , and were devoted to the enlightenment of mankind. They knew there was a better way of life, and they were seeking it. At that time the Freemasons , along with some of history’s impressive thinkers, were involved in what was called “The In College ” . It was a uniting of the minds of creative thinkers, but not disclosed to the public like an ordinary school. It was a society of scientists and philosophers , and crated in the early 17th century. Those unusually insightful men were truly a great source of enlightenment. They were those who contributed to what would be called the NEW WORLD ORDER . Robert Boyle, Christopher Wren, Frances Bacon and Issac Newton were some members.
They offer a forum for discussion , and the mutual exchange of ideas on subjects that would have included science, alchemy, and assorted esoteric ideas. However—-the religious and political climate at that time meant that the discussion of such issues were potentially dangerous . The Masons were banned by King Louis xv of France and condemned by the Catholic Church. The church was strongly opposed to Masonry and , in fact, STILL IS today ! It was attacked by the Vatican in the 17th century and the Pope said they were “depraved and “perverted” and said anyone who joined them would be excommunicated and/or punished. Scientists such as Galileo had raised the ire of that church by suggesting that the earth revolved around the sun. He managed to escape severe punishment , but it was not easy. Those found guilty of criticizing the Church or thinking outside the realms of church views or teachings could be imprisoned or burned to death at the stake. The turmoil and paranoia of religious puritanism led to a great deal of fear and unjust control over people. It was vital , therefore, that the exchange of such information be concealed within the virtual framework of something like that “in college”. It was probably about that time when the move from operative to speculative Freemasonry took place. The secure meeting places of the stone operators guilds provided a good place for freethinkers and philosophers to meet .By veiling their intellectual pursuits in allegory it was possible to avoid suspicions of state and church.
By 1717 the Freemasons became more public and visible. Later on famous Freemasons like George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and many others who were not famous brought those ideals of enlightenment, perfecting the human soul, brotherly love, justice, rights for all and charity to us. They believed in freedom from religious persecution too.
I think how well you enjoy Dan Brown’s book depends somewhat on how you feel about the Freemasons. If you find them interesting and appreciate them the book should satisfy you more. Now that I’ve told you some stuff about that “secret” society maybe you really can find it easier to be interested .
If the evil spell of religious tyranny should cast its shaddow on us once more…and we feel trapped….I wonder..if some group like the Freemasons could possibly help civilization breathe free again ?
The History Channel has had programs on the Freemasons for 20 years Dee.
Do you always live by reactionary soundbites?
Is every day of your life started completely from scratch?
About Freemasonry on television : for information available to the public so long and so often it doesn’t seem to have educated many people on the subject. Either that or the quantity of viewers has been low .
Also, I hate to tell you this ( just kidding ) but the “information” revealed and/or “facts” stated by the entertainment industry’s artists of sorts are very often brandished lavishly or questioned unnecessarily just to capture an audience and stimulate interest . After all, those talented show directors have their orders to make it look and sound intriguing . Of course , when it comes to the Masons it is not difficult to say ” perhaps”,“they say”, “it has been said” “many think” “it could be ” “some believe” ETC.!! That is because the Freemasons HAVE NOT been easy to follow, analyze, or correlate with statistics . One reason for that is simply because of their age, and also because they have truly been a secret and secretive ( assuming you know the difference) social order. It has been that way down through the years sometimes out of necessity ( as I just explained in my first post ) and sometimes just for practical reasons if I may put it that way (hoping they would forgive me ) Even-so, if you know anything at all, you should realize that the Freemasons do not need Hollywood or Dan Brown to make them an intriguing group ,and a genuine drama . Their whole existence has been a age-old real-life melodrama .
You said “Do you always live by reactionary soundbites ? ” and “is every day of your life started completely from scratch ? ” Are you not being a little presumptuous ? Have you let your lack of knowledge assume I am a gullible ninny ? “Reactionary soundbites ” ? I try to know my own self well (as all good humans should do ) and as far as I know I am not a “reactionary soundbite ” person . That’s why I ended up not believing in any religion. ANYHOW, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and think you didn’t mean to be mean. But try to explain, please ..? Thanks—DEE
Every since Dan Brown’s new book The Lost Symbol hit the stores and made him a million dollars overnight, “Freemasons” seems to be the newest buzz-word ![...]
If the evil spell of religious tyranny should cast its shaddow on us once more…and we feel trapped….I wonder..if some group like the Freemasons could possibly help civilization breathe free again ?
Dee,
My great uncle, who lived in the Yakima Valley, was a Shriner, and to be a Shriner, you have to be a Mason. Now, I loved the guy, and he was very good to me, let me drive a tractor about 8 miles down a public road when I was 12, split a sixer of beer with me on the way home from the fields when I was 17, but unless you think drinking bourbon, parading around on horses with a fez on, and bitching about the very crop subsidies that keep you solvent is that basis for helping “civilization breathe free again,” I think you’re pinning your hopes on the wrong group.
I did enjoy National Treasure (but not the sequel), but fictional accounts of the Freemasons have not induced me to place my faith in them; how about the ACLU, or the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Americans United or ... what am I trying to think of? ... it’s some kind of atheist group that ... what is the name? Oh, yeah. The Reason Project.
Or for that matter, you could join your local democratic, republican, green, libertarian, whatever party. Nationally, all you get are mail solicitations, but if you show up locally, and stuff envelopes or answer phones, before long you are actually an “insider.” (So I’m told. I have never darkened the door of a major political party. See my signature.)
Every since Dan Brown’s new book The Lost Symbol hit the stores and made him a million dollars overnight, “Freemasons” seems to be the newest buzz-word ![...]
If the evil spell of religious tyranny should cast its shaddow on us once more…and we feel trapped….I wonder..if some group like the Freemasons could possibly help civilization breathe free again ?
Dee,
My great uncle, who lived in the Yakima Valley, was a Shriner, and to be a Shriner, you have to be a Mason. Now, I loved the guy, and he was very good to me, let me drive a tractor about 8 miles down a public road when I was 12, split a sixer of beer with me on the way home from the fields when I was 17, but unless you think drinking bourbon, parading around on horses with a fez on, and bitching about the very crop subsidies that keep you solvent is that basis for helping “civilization breathe free again,” I think you’re pinning your hopes on the wrong group.
I did enjoy National Treasure (but not the sequel), but fictional accounts of the Freemasons have not induced me to place my faith in them; how about the ACLU, or the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Americans United or ... what am I trying to think of? ... it’s some kind of atheist group that ... what is the name? Oh, yeah. The Reason Project.
Or for that matter, you could join your local democratic, republican, green, libertarian, whatever party. Nationally, all you get are mail solicitations, but if you show up locally, and stuff envelopes or answer phones, before long you are actually an “insider.” (So I’m told. I have never darkened the door of a major political party. See my signature.)
Teuch : Your response is pretty typical, and that’s too bad, because it is not sensible to judge a great and ancient fraternal order by what you see in one man’s behavior. What you saw of your uncle probably was a different person than the one you’d see at a lodge meeting .
BUT—I’m not thinking of the Masons of today when I refer to them as “saviors” ( for lack of a better word ) of a kind. Think back to the past with me for a moment : remember , in the 16th-17th centuries Europe was dominated by that monster church, and , like most religious fanatics, they were full of themselves and ignorant, and that’s the way they liked it . Think about it : what would have happened if groups such as the Freemasons , Invisible College, and others like them ,had not decided to respect reason and education etc. ? They were the “free thinkers” of that age and they progressed because there were so many people yearning for a new attitude, freedom ,and they had faith in the creativity of the human mind beyond the restrictions of religion, or at least one like the Roman Catholic religion . It wasn’t just the Freemasons of course, but others like them too who helped usher in the dawn of a new world; sometimes called the “age of enlightenment “.
The spread and the scope of the Masonic societies was sort of phenomenon, and it was very influential. Anyone scoffing should think about that. They truly helped shape Western culture a lot . It is time they were appreciated for their contribution to what became the United States of America. It is mostly that day and age I have in mind when I talk about “saving the world”.
The Freemasons will deny that they are a substitute for religion; they just don’t like to be thought of that way, but actually—that is pretty much what they became, as I see it. Much of what they teach has to do with morality, they speak of an afterlife, a “supreme being ” ( which they refer to as “the great architect of the Universe ” ), having respectable character,integrity, and “finding the light” and other such expressions found in religions. A lot of people who have decided they don’t like the Masons give them hell because they are always comparing them to a religion. When thyey can’t live up to religious expectations, such as belief in Christ, the demonizers claim Masons are everything from corrupt, sinister and Satanic. Those people who keep spouting off like that are stupid, because when they get mad at Masonry because it doesn’t act like a certain religion etc. they are getting mad at a dog for not being a cat. Stupid.
Still, they COULD be a “substitute for religion” . We on this forum are always asking ourselves what happens ifr religion DOES fade out ? Would the world REALLY be a better place ? Or would a lot of people who would otherwise be reluctant to sin, feel it wouldn’t matter because a God wasn’t judging them ? I know some people who became very nice and miraculously changed for the better by religion. Maybe religion would be missed , because people are always yearning for a guide in their lives. That is where a society like the Masons could come in . It’s an idea !
So your Uncle is a Shriner from Yakima huh ?? I tip my hat to him, sincerely. Here’s a good thing to know : of all the orders of the Freemasons , the SHRINERS ARE THE BEST ! In spite of all the serious talk, undertakings, and exotic rituals etc. of the rest of Freemason groups, the SHRINERS are the ones who have the most to show for their efforts, and they are not worried about disclosing anything to the public . What they are all about is children - they treat and take care of thousands of children who have been terribly hurt, burned,etc. in their Shriner’s Hospitals FREE OF CHARGE !! Their marching in parades is a beautiful sight to see because they wear uniforms that shine and sparkle and those red fezes are something to be proud of. They have all thses different Shrine “units” and they are a lot for the kids. Stuff like clowns, little cars, etc. They have Patrols, chanters, bands, pipers, etc. They are good guys- all their regular membership money and money made by other means goes to help—so don’t knock the Shriners—they deserve credit.
You say a man has to be a Mason in order to become a Shriner- that is true , but not just any Mason; he has to be a thirty-three degree Mason , otherwise known as a “Master Mason” . A man has to earn that title of “Shriner” , which is something not many people realize .
Tell me, what unit was your uncle in ? BTW, are YOU from Yakima ? Or some other part of Washington State ?
Teuch : Your response is pretty typical, and that’s too bad, because it is not sensible to judge a great and ancient fraternal order by what you see in one man’s behavior.
Let’s not misunderstand each other. As I said, I loved the guy, and have no criticism of his behavior. The times I stayed with him, we were out the door and headed to the fields just before sunrise, and didn’t come back until sundown. The only person who worked harder than him was my aunt, who had breakfast cooking when I came downstairs in the morning, and cooked dinner after we got home. And there is nothing I respect and admire more than honest hard work.
However, that does not mean that I care to entrust his group to “help civilization breath free again.” This is more true when I recall that they had a bunch of secret rules and standards of which I know nothing, and therefore to which I cannot subscribe.
Dee - 14 October 2009 10:07 PM
Tell me, what unit was your uncle in ? BTW, are YOU from Yakima ? Or some other part of Washington State ?
I have no idea what unit he was in; I just remember him riding in parades, and, because we lived near SF, where the East/West Shriners football game was always played, one time he came down and got us all tickets. I grew up in the SF Bay Area, but had relatives in Eastern Washington, and particularly the Yakima Valley; I loved staying on the farm where, even at 12, you were regarded as an asset to be worked rather than a problem to be solved, and spent as much time there as I could. Also, when I was older, I spent a few years in Seattle and still think it’s one the best places in the world.
Still, they COULD be a “substitute for religion” . We on this forum are always asking ourselves what happens ifr religion DOES fade out ? Would the world REALLY be a better place ? Or would a lot of people who would otherwise be reluctant to sin, feel it wouldn’t matter because a God wasn’t judging them ? I know some people who became very nice and miraculously changed for the better by religion. Maybe religion would be missed , because people are always yearning for a guide in their lives. That is where a society like the Masons could come in . It’s an idea !
I think we all need to stop assuming we need a substitute for religion. Are there evil people in the world? Sure. Might some people commit evil acts if they think there is no god judging them? Maybe. But that doesn’t mean we need to keep silly delusions around to keep those people’s primitive urges in check. We need encouragement of personal responsibility, understanding of the consequences of our actions, and laws and those who enforce them.
Are there evil people in the world? Sure. Might some people commit evil acts if they think there is no god judging them? Maybe. But that doesn’t mean we need to keep silly delusions around to keep those people’s primitive urges in check.
Steven Weinberg -
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
I think Weinberg is on right on the money here. I doubt if there are many people out there that behave themselves because of religion. I think quite the opposite actually. I think having Jesus (or whoever) to confess to makes it a lot easier to do immoral things. You’re told you can basically do whatever you want as long as you ask for forgiveness, and in some branches of Christianity all you have to do is accept Jesus and you got a golden ticket to heaven no matter what you do afterwords. The way I see it, religion is a great way to bypass your conscience.
I read somewhere years ago that the Buonarroti family was involved with the origin of the Freemasons sometime in the 15th Century, whether this is true or not I don’t know. Of course Michelangelo Buonarroti (1575-1564) was himself a Freemason, so I suspect that much of his great sculptures and paintings were done in pure jest of christianity and a look at the complete works in the Sistine Chapel appears to confirm that suspicion.
I read somewhere years ago that the Buonarroti family was involved with the origin of the Freemasons sometime in the 15th Century, whether this is true or not I don’t know. Of course Michelangelo Buonarroti (1575-1564) was himself a Freemason, so I suspect that much of his great sculptures and paintings were done in pure jest of christianity and a look at the complete works in the Sistine Chapel appears to confirm that suspicion.
Freemasonry is a polarizing subject, especially when it comes to ideas about it’s history, origin and age. You’d think by now there would have been enough evidence based on dedicated research to answer these questions decidedly. The most famous and accepted story is the one about King Solomon’s Temple .It is claimed that Masons were hired by the king to help build his fabulous place. If anyone reading this is reluctant to accept this, well, it is certainly understandable, because it does seem highly unlikely. Whether it is true or not doesn’t seem to matter to the Freemasons , because either way, King Solomon and the building of the first temple in Jerusalem is central to Masonic teachings . The central image or symbol around which Freemasonry is organized,and teachings of moral and spiritual lessons , is the temple of Solomon . They chose that symbol because just as it was intended to be perfect the Masons believe they should follow that example.
There are old pictures of the layout of the temple showing all of the key features that are incorporated into the design of Masonic halls and special rooms. There are also many old drawings and paintings , and some comparatively new ones showing Solomon’s Temple and Masonic figures, with their aprons and other traditional outfits. But all these ideas and beliefs are probably just symbolic, and have special meaning exclusive to the Freemasons themselves. I do know that their involvement with the temple in their rituals goes further than just the building itself. With it comes the story of the Temple’s chief architect who was killed because he would not disclose the Masonic craft secrets to other workers . He is a very significant allegorical figure in Masonic lore and ritual .
The other most popular idea about the Freemason’s beginning is simply that they were the stonecutters of the medieval age . They did share secrets about their craft so their talent could remain as exclusive to them as possible , but their guilds were simply like the worker’s unions of today, and not especially religious or altruistic. To me, this has always sounded like the most obvious fact as far as their history is concerned. Yes, they DO go w-a-y back in time !
There are other ideas about their origin also - some interesting, but I doubt they are THE actual roots.
About Michelangelo : he was put in a family of stonecutters pretty early in life, if I remember right, but his involvement with that hammer-and-chisel stuff was limited to his sculptures .
HEY—EUDEMONIA—-where are you now ..?? You were saying ...? You never did answer my questions. Come back here;—- or have you run out of snide remarks ??
Why do you people insist on responding to Dee? Jeebus flipping fuck, she’s now claiming that the silly founding myth of the Freemasons—that they date back to Soloman’s freaking temple—is the “most accepted” creation myth.
This is not a person we should be taking seriously.
Why do you people insist on responding to Dee? Jeebus flipping fuck, she’s now claiming that the silly founding myth of the Freemasons—that they date back to Soloman’s freaking temple—is the “most accepted” creation myth.
This is not a person we should be taking seriously.
Bigred : I know your kind of person very well. You thrive on giving someone a bad time. It gives you a boost to belittle someone, that is how you make yourself feel big . Now you are pleading with others here to join in your belittling . That would give you a boost too.
This forum is for an exchange of civil conversation, not for mean-spirited sparring . If you want to fight go join a teen-age chat room. If you insist on being abusive, and you can’t stop trying to knock me out , well let me ask you to refrain from your kind of pleasure out of respect for Sam Harris and his good work. At least allow him that dignity . And that would spare the rest of the participants on this forum also.
And when it comes to subjects like Islam and Freemasonry, you know nothing. You’ve got a big opinion but that opinion is nothing but a big balloon full of hot air. Untill you have read at least one good book and educated yourself at least somewhat on these subjects don’t go shooting off your mouth just to give me a bad time. Quit waving your ignorance around like a red flag .
By the way : speaking of the Freemasons , you are the kind of person they would turn away. You could never make it with them—they are way above your attitude .
Why do you people insist on responding to Dee? Jeebus flipping fuck, she’s now claiming that the silly founding myth of the Freemasons—that they date back to Soloman’s freaking temple—is the “most accepted” creation myth.
This is not a person we should be taking seriously.
Bigred : I know your kind of person very well. You thrive on giving someone a bad time. It gives you a boost to belittle someone, that is how you make yourself feel big . Now you are pleading with others here to join in your belittling . That would give you a boost too.
This forum is for an exchange of civil conversation, not for mean-spirited sparring . If you want to fight go join a teen-age chat room. If you insist on being abusive, and you can’t stop trying to knock me out , well let me ask you to refrain from your kind of pleasure out of respect for Sam Harris and his good work. At least allow him that dignity . And that would spare the rest of the participants on this forum also.
And when it comes to subjects like Islam and Freemasonry, you know nothing. You’ve got a big opinion but that opinion is nothing but a big balloon full of hot air. Untill you have read at least one good book and educated yourself at least somewhat on these subjects don’t go shooting off your mouth just to give me a bad time. Quit waving your ignorance around like a red flag .
By the way : speaking of the Freemasons , you are the kind of person they would turn away. You could never make it with them—they are way above your attitude .
Oh my God—the Freemasons won’t take me! Oh the horror!
You are an absolute joke, Dee. You come on here and spout regurgitated right-wing talking points while demonstrating a stunning ignorance of the wider world and the vast amount of reputable information available on Islam, religion, and politics, and now you’re pimping some Enlightenment-era fraternal organization as if the rest of us are simply blank slates waiting for you to fill up with wisdom.
You’ve shared all of your “sources” and for the most part they’re laughably bigoted, one-sided, and shallow. Which means they’re probably over your head. But please, please, PLEASE give up this silly fiction that people who aren’t as narrow and provincial and bigoted as you are somehow “uninformed.” You make a fool of yourself everytime you try to spread your weird little gospel.
Give her a break bigred. Dee just heard about the Freemasons on The History Channel a few nights ago. She is having another revelation. We should not spoil that.
My question is: when did the masons save the world in the first place?
Saying the Freemasons saved the world was a tongue—in-cheek remark, not meant to be factual, but rather I was trying to set the scene for the nature of Masonic works etc.
Did you read my posts ? I already explained why they should be appreciated as some of those who helped usher in a new phase of history that brought enlightenment to the European and Western world. As I explained the people were victims of religious oppression ; the Catholic Church ruled, and there was only a fine line, if any, between the church and politics. Certain thinking and brave people formed their own illustrious organizations or groups in which they determined to live by what they say as a better life through creative thinking and freedom from harsh religious restriction . These groups took it upon themselves to make their own rules, which they believed to be just. It was the days of the Illuminati, and the now “speculative” Freemasons. They wanted a New World Order .
More than most people realize, the Freemasons were prominent and instrumental in the shaping of the ideas in the famous governmental documents. If I remember right,of the 56 signatures on the Declaration of Independence nine were decidedly Freemasons and another 10 were thought to be , There were 5 dominating figures appointed to formulate the Constitution and 3 of them were Masons.
There were very many individuals from the lodge involved with governmental decisions, and making of rules etc. These men, Freemasons, held to their ideals and inforced them through the principles that give us Democracy.
Some of the greatest names in the American Revolution were Masons. (THAT WAR saved a lot of us in the long run didn’t it ? ) Think of Ethan Alien, Franklin, Hancock, John Paul Jones, Paul Revere and Washington. Washington was a dedicated Mason and he governed himself and the country by Masonic principles. The early American military troops were commanded by almost all Freemasons. All George Washington’s generals were Freemasons.
And, yes, it IS true ..that the CENTRAL IMAGE; THE SYMBOL, AROUND WHICH FREEMASONRY IS ORGANIZED IS THE TEMPLE OF SOLOMON . It has been variously debated that the Freemasons derive from practices of medieval stonemasons and that it dates back to events involved with the construction of the Temple of King Solomon. I am not saying it does or it doesn’t—; as a matter of fact, I just stated in one of my posts on the subject that the chances of Freemasons working on the King’s Temple were not likely, so it can be considered allegorical. Again : whether it is true or not does not bother the Masons; they make the Temple and the whole bundle that comes with it part of their lessons and rituals .
Anything ...else ...?? Questions ?? Secrets ?? want to know…?? Should you JOIN the Masons ?? (Ever think of that ?? )
BTW : EUDEMONIA ...I ” learned about the Freemasons on the History Channel ” ????? If I did, I’m not aware of it . Iv’e never had to get my info. from the t.v. yet .
My question is: when did the masons save the world in the first place?
Anything ...else ...?? Questions ?? Secrets ?? want to know…?? Should you JOIN the Masons ?? (Ever think of that ?? )
.
Nope. I have a good friend who is a Mason. I went to his wedding in a Masonic Lodge and know enough about them to realize that I’m not interested in joining them.
Nope. I have a good friend who is a Mason. I went to his wedding in a Masonic Lodge and know enough about them to realize that I’m not interested in joining them.
You can’t join them, you’re an atheist. Years ago I looked into it, out of curiosity, and the minimum requirements to join are:
1. Be 18 years of age.
2. Be male.
3. Believe in a god, any god, but something of a supernatural power.
After that I couldn’t care less or more about them.
LOL. Yeah Skip, that would about do it for me. In other words, one of our but 3 minimum requirements is that you be deluded in your thinking!
What kind of a fookin’ organization is that? A Junto for fuckwits? Ben Franklin would be utterly disgusted.
Continue having your fun belittling me if you want to , but please don’t start doing that to the Freemasons. I have lived with Freemasons for nearly all my life and I can tell you they are, on the whole, a wonderful group.
Why is there so much opinion and so little understanding ?
And sorry, I had to embarrass anyone here who started this talk about my having learned overnight from the history channel—I guess I should have told you right away I had all that experience with Freemasonry.
The Masons are honorable men and a very interesting institution. The Shriners help thousands of kids every year at their special hospitals and they don’t charge. The Scottish Rite and York Rite, also have their special clinics for children and teenagers also . They help with speech problems, learning problems , and that sort of thing.
And the Masons should not be compared to the Elks, Lions etc. Those places amount to little more than dinning and dancing clubs, and they are not old at all.I don’t think they are international either. Whereas the Masons are ancient. As I said before, whether they go back as far as the days of King Solomon is still controversial , but they certainly did go back as far as the Medieval times .
