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Free Will Poll (try to choose freely)
Free will is bestowed supernaturally 1
Free will is just a religious delusion (correct answer) 28
This question threatens my identity 2
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Free Will Poll (try to choose freely)
Posted: 10 October 2009 09:13 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Free will is clearly religious nonsense, but the implications are profound.

The most common challenge I encounter is that this is too discouraging, as it implies we can’t really make choices.  Many have a big ego investment in free will, and just can’t imagine we are only along for the ride.

We do make choices, and take action (if not paralyzed by fear), but the question at issue is what brings this about.

I contend that our nature (DNA), environment (womb etc.), life experiences and current circumstances EXCLUSIVELY DETERMINE (subject to random perturbation from chaos) the decisions we take. {revised 2009-10-24}*

A simple thought experiment:  You are offered a choice between either RED or BLUE.  You make a choice.  Now rewind the universe back to before your choice, can you choose the other this time?

Disclaimer:  My will to offer this poll was emboldened by “The MACALLAN,” twelve years old.  As such, no superior insight is implied.

*{original}  ...circumstances DETERMINE UNAMBIGUOUSLY the decisions we take.


Favourite pull quotes from this thread:

GAD - 12 October 2009 06:35 AM

Freewill and randomness are mutually exclusive.

601 - 12 October 2009 12:39 PM

The ultimate irony is that religions use the concept of free will to control their followers.

601 - 12 October 2009 03:46 PM

Who would really want free will anyway, I have enough trouble making choices as it is.

teuchter - 13 October 2009 11:03 AM

The Macallan is an elixir which hones thinking like a cerebral strop.

unknown zone - 15 October 2009 04:49 AM

Whether or not we have FW is a loaded question—one that was loaded up with nonsense and superstition long ago.

601 - 15 October 2009 02:28 PM

Morality is the free will myth in disguise. (as contrasted with community ethics)

unknown zone - 16 October 2009 05:07 AM

I have a feeling that the issue of FW will need to continue to be addressed for quite some time before a meaningful cognitive shift will occur in large population areas in this regard. That’s how important it is, in my opinion.

[ Edited: 24 October 2009 07:24 PM by 601 ]
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Posted: 11 October 2009 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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No bias in those answers (correct answer).  tongue laugh

What if you take freewill out of religion, or religion out of freewill as the case may be. It has the same issues, so I think the best answer is that freewill is simply an illusion.

Note that this position requires hard/incompatible determinism, I haven’t found anyone else here who will admit to that position other then myself. It appears that even the majority of atheists believe in some version of freewill which makes telling theists they are wrong very…... difficult…....

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Posted: 11 October 2009 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Can anyone make a cogent argument against all free will?  I don’t mean arguing that at least some or most of our decisions are determined, but all of them?  Also, I’m not saying we can necessarily choose when we make a free decision either.  I’m just interested in hearing how it is that at no time can “person A” make a choice that he/she cannot help but make in the way he/she has..

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Posted: 11 October 2009 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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doggod - 11 October 2009 09:30 AM

Can anyone make a cogent argument against all free will?  I don’t mean arguing that at least some or most of our decisions are determined, but all of them?  Also, I’m not saying we can necessarily choose when we make a free decision either.  I’m just interested in hearing how it is that at no time can “person A” make a choice that he/she cannot help but make in the way he/she has..

Causality.

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Posted: 11 October 2009 09:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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It appears to boil down to what is actually meant by the term ‘free.’  All of us are constrained by physical, biological, and intellectual forces, thus given these constraints it is difficult to conceive of “being free” as somehow acting independent of these constraints.  Of course if you believe that you HAVE a soul or even some kind of disembodied mind, then it becomes possible to act completely unconstrained.  “Possible” there is a key word, because without the notion of an unconstrained self, freedom of that kind becomes impossible.

Naturally, we can make certain choices when options for actions are PRESENTed, but these actions remain under the constraints mentioned above. However, given that the self (constrained) can envision a future, it is in those visions where our freedom resides.  Because we (embodied, brained beings) can contemplate the future before it comes to pass, we can, in essence, determine how the present will unfold (given our natural constraints).  To be an effective force in the unfolding of THE PRESENT is the only variety of freedom that we can possess, or would ultimately want to possess.  Any other kind of freedom when examined carefully will turn out to be nonsense.

Bob

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Posted: 11 October 2009 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I’m going to do something peculiar, and that is to suggest for those of us who are interested in the doctrine of free will to do some exploration of current Internet voices from fundamentalist Christian philosophers. FW is a diverse field of study, and if anyone here actually does some looking around, please inform the rest of us about what you come across. I’m making this suggestion because it seems to make sense not only to read about the history of the concept, but perhaps it’s even more helpful to current discussions to get some idea about what sorts of things are being taught by religionists today. FW is fundamentally a religious concept, both historically and currently. It has a rich history, going back to pre-Christian Greeks, though I’m not sure yet where it originated. I need to do a bit more reading myself, and I can’t seem to find the magnifying glass that came with my OED whose text appears in famously infinitesimal 3-point type. But using the loupe that helped me identify the point size at least allows me to skim the text, as well, and all the entries seem to refer to God and/or biblical teachings. FW is a morality term, no doubt about it, and a religious morality term, at that. It seems to me that any atheistic or humanistic discussion of FW needs to focus on current and historical usages of the term by those who found/find it foundational to their souls and imagined destinies. It’s all about sin and fear of eternal torture.

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Posted: 11 October 2009 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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doggod - 11 October 2009 09:30 AM

Can anyone make a cogent argument against all free will?  I don’t mean arguing that at least some or most of our decisions are determined, but all of them?  Also, I’m not saying we can necessarily choose when we make a free decision either.  I’m just interested in hearing how it is that at no time can “person A” make a choice that he/she cannot help but make in the way he/she has..

Sure, free will is the ability to reason, a human trait and capacity of the human mind/brain developed through evolution. I guess there’s objection to the term because it’s associated with religion. The story of genesis is just a symbolic accounting of our awareness of the difference between us and other animals. The characters of Eve and Adam transcended the instinctual laws of nature by eating from the tree of knowledge. Now they have a basis to think about what they’re going to do and make choices.  Religiously speaking, free will is bad when we reject faith in god, but a good choice if you choose to believe. That’s why their marketing strategy is so extreme and relentless. We also refer to terms from the other end of the spectrum such as herd conformity to note the difference. While some aspects of our biology cause us to act in certain programmed instinctual ways mostly for purposes of survival, we have the capacity to alter many of them and not act as expected or in a predictable limited way. Instead of just running away from the tiger until the danger has passed, then do nothing until it happens again and repeat the exercise, we can come back later with a long-range high-powered rifle and calmly remove the danger from a distance of no real threat. Instead of believing in a god and the promise of heaven with a number of nubile virgins in wait if only one will shove an explosive devise up his ass and blow himself up in a market place taking as many others with him as possible, he can be sitting down typing on a keyboard discussing free will on the RP forum. We can choose from myriad of options. That’s how I see the concept of free will.

[edit]  Now I see you were interested in the other end of the spectrum so my answer doesn’t address your question ... my bad. The general question seems to be how free is free? I would say free within the limits of our biology, our ability to react to our environment and the limits of our imaginations.

[ Edited: 11 October 2009 07:49 PM by Answerer ]
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Posted: 11 October 2009 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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601 - 10 October 2009 09:13 PM

I contend that our nature (DNA), environment (womb etc.), life experiences and current circumstances DETERMINE UNAMBIGUOUSLY the decisions we take.

Maybe so, but the sheer volume of factors determining our decisions renders the whole idea meaningless.  It sounds good in theory to say there is no free will, but for all intents and purposes there is.

I see free will as being akin to randomness.  Claiming there’s no such thing as free will is like claiming a coin toss isn’t random.  Theoretically, given the exact and precise circumstances of the toss, the coin can only possibly land one way (rewind the universe if you don’t believe me).  It sounds good in theory to say the coin toss isn’t random, but for all intents and purposes it is.

The weather is another example.  Rewind the universe and today’s weather won’t change.  Plugging the right historical data into the right equation should tell you exactly what the weather will be a year from now—or ten years.  But how likely is that in reality?  For all intents and purposes, the weather is random.

You seem to see our decision making process as something more like the behavior of celestial bodies.  We can tell exactly what time the moon will rise a hundred years from today.  I guess maybe there’s no clear deliniation between random and non-random, between free will and no free will.  It probably depends on where you see the dividing line that “determines” whether you believe in free will or not.

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Posted: 11 October 2009 11:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Antisocialdarwinist - 11 October 2009 09:05 PM

I see free will as being akin to randomness.

I am a big fan of Chaos Theory, but I cannot accept randomness as a refuge in which free will can hide.

You decide to flip a coin to make a choice (so that choice will be random), but your to decision to choose this way was inevitable, based on the circumstances at that moment (and chaos contributed to those circumstances).

That your behavior is sometimes unpredictable, is independent from you having the free will to choose it.

[ Edited: 11 October 2009 11:40 PM by 601 ]
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Posted: 11 October 2009 11:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I can’t exactly defend free will but I can attack determinism. Many physicists would contend that determinism itself is only an extrapolation of quantum probability and not a fundamental property of our physical universe at all. Of course I’m WAY out of my depth if I’m asked to explain much further than that but ya’ll have that google button.

Some recent neuroscience implies that our brains are actually quantum systems capable of generating truly random quantities and therefore not deterministic. This can’t exactly be equated free will… more like random will. But it seems like more fun than simply being a robot.

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Deepak, could we just dial it down?

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Posted: 12 October 2009 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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For anyone interested in such things as FW, the quantum brain, qualia, decoherence etc., here is a wonderful read by one of the most brilliant scientists of our generation. Dr. Stuart Kauffman. This is pretty technical reading but worthwhile to bookmark as I have for future reference. As Dr. Kauffman admits, the quantum brain is a long way off from being proven. However, it could eventually explain how the human brain produces what we know as ‘free will’ in anotherwise deterministic universe. Enjoy.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/kauffman09/kauffman09_index.html

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Posted: 12 October 2009 06:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Antisocialdarwinist - 11 October 2009 09:05 PM

I see free will as being akin to randomness.  Claiming there’s no such thing as free will is like claiming a coin toss isn’t random.  Theoretically, given the exact and precise circumstances of the toss, the coin can only possibly land one way (rewind the universe if you don’t believe me).  It sounds good in theory to say the coin toss isn’t random, but for all intents and purposes it is.


Freewill and randomness are mutually exclusive.

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Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

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Posted: 12 October 2009 06:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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601 - 11 October 2009 11:30 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 11 October 2009 09:05 PM

I see free will as being akin to randomness.

I am a big fan of Chaos Theory, but I cannot accept randomness as a refuge in which free will can hide.

You decide to flip a coin to make a choice (so that choice will be random), but your to decision to choose this way was inevitable, based on the circumstances at that moment (and chaos contributed to those circumstances).

That your behavior is sometimes unpredictable, is independent from you having the free will to choose it.

Exactly!

Good to have someone else who gets it here!  LOL

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Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

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Posted: 12 October 2009 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Yes, determinism is misunderstood as pre-determinism at times. That is not the case. Things are not pre-determined, they are just ‘determined’ by laws of physics and chemistry. Something can be determined but actually happen at random. Theists believe that we humans were ordained with ‘free will’  by our creator outside of determined physical law.

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Posted: 12 October 2009 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Here is some more good commentary on this subject. Daniel Dennett’s excellent book ‘Freedom Evolves’ is critiqued here by Michael Shermer-

The Demon of Determinism
April 2003
A review of Daniel C. Dennett’s Freedom Evolves.

Next to the question of God’s existence there is arguably no greater conundrum in Western thought than the problem of free will and determinism, and the two are inextricably interdigitated. God’s omniscience and omnipotence means that the future is foreordained and predetermined, which precludes free will. If we are volitional beings then God is limited in knowledge, power, or both.

The French philosopher René Descartes suggested this way out: “We will be free from these embarrassments if we recollect that our mind is limited while the power of God, by which he not only knew from all eternity what is or can be, but also willed and preordained it, is infinite. It thus happens that we possess sufficient intelligence to know clearly and distinctly that this power is in God, but not enough to comprehend how he leaves the free actions of men indeterminate.”

The English author C.S. Lewis simply placed God outside of time: “All the days are ‘Now’ for Him. He doesn’t remember you doing things yesterday; he simply sees you doing them, because, though you’ve lost yesterday, He has not. He doesn’t foresee you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing.”

Removing God does not produce a resolution. By the nineteenth century the Newtonian/Cartesian mechanistic world-view was codified by the French mathematician Marquis de Laplace and has since become known as Laplace’s demon: “Let us imagine an Intelligence who would know at a given instant of time all forces acting in nature and the position of all things of which the world consists; let us assume, further, that this Intelligence would be capable of subjecting all these data to mathematical analysis. Then it could derive a result that would embrace in one and the same formula the motion of the largest bodies in the universe and of the lightest atoms. Nothing would be uncertain for this Intelligence. The past and the future would be present to its eyes.” By the twentieth century science undertook to become that demon, casting a wide “causal net” linking causes to effects throughout the past and into the future and encompassing all phenomena throughout the cosmos from atoms to galaxies. God and nature are deterministically indistinguishable.

Why, then, do we feel free? What non-theological solutions have been proposed to slay the demon of determinism? The simplest is also the most subjectively appealing: I have free will and you don’t. This useful fiction serves us well in daily life and most of us act as if it is true, but it is philosophically unsatisfying. At the other extreme is the claim that the problem is an unsoluble one — a “mysterian” mystery — where we are smart enough to conceive of the problem but not smart enough to solve it. Science writer and mysterian philosopher Martin Gardner, for example, says that asking Is there free will? is like asking What is time? “Like time, with which it is linked, free will is best left — indeed, I believe we cannot do otherwise — an impenetrable mystery. Ask not how it works because no one on earth can tell you.” For such mysteries pragmatist philosophers like William James and Charles Peirce argue that (1) in issues of extreme importance to human existence, (2) when the evidence is inconclusive one way or the other, and (3) you must make a choice, it is acceptable to take a leap of faith (for example, that there is a God or there is free will). But here we are back to free will as a useful fiction.

A popular solution of late appeals to quantum indeterminacy. Perhaps the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the various indeterminant effects associated with quantum mechanics provide a crack in the deterministic armor for free will to emerge. It doesn’t, for two reasons: (1) quantum effects cancel each other out at the macro level in which everyday phenomena (including free will) occur, and (2) even if it could be established that quantum uncertainties lead to random neuronal firings this does not spawn free will; it just adds another deterministic causal factor, only this one is random instead of nonrandom.

This second critique was brilliantly outlined by the Tuft’s University philosopher Daniel C. Dennett in his highly-regarded 1984 book on the subject entitled Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting. Dennett correctly notes that neither too much free will nor too much determinism works. If our actions are completely determined or completely random then we are not responsible for them. Where is the balance to be found? In evolutionary theory, argues Dennett in his new book Freedom Evolves. The author of the materialistic defense of consciousness as a product of nothing more than neuronal activity in Consciousness Explained, and of undiluted Darwinian theory in Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, has now turned his methodological naturalism to extrapolating free will out of neural complexity and evolutionary theory.

Dennett strives, with some success, at being the scientist’s philosopher, an embodiment of the consilient approach promulgated by evolutionary biologist Edward O. Wilson, through a “jumping together” of data and theory from disperate fields. Thus, although he leans heavily on the philosopher’s stock in trade of logic, linguistics, and thought experiments (that, while cleverly presented occasionally bogs down in convoluted reasoning), Dennett’s quiver includes evolutionary biology, game theory, the computer game of life, cognitive neuroscience, genetic engineering, meme theory, and more. Dennett’s thesis can be summarized as follows: (1) humans are evolved animals without a soul but with free will; (2) we are the only species with free will because we have a “self,” a sense of being self-aware, and even aware that others are self-aware, because (3) we have symbolic language that allows us to communicate the fact that we are aware and self-aware, and (4) we have extremely complex neural circuitry and many degrees of behavioral freedom (a jellyfish, like a hot-air balloon, for example, has one degree of freedom: up and down; we have many more), and (5) we have a theory of mind about other selves who are also (6) moral animals in the sense of having evolved moral sentiments, or feelings of making right or wrong choices as members of a social species, and with symbolic language we have the representational power to reason with each other about what we ought to do, therefore (7) free will emerges out of our deterministic world from the fact that we can weigh the consequences of the many courses of action available to us, that we are aware that we (and others) make these choices, and we hold ourselves and them accountable.

In Dennett’s materialistic philosophy free will is located in the brain, of course, but where? In the “self,” a metaphor for an adaptation our brains evolved for monitoring what is happening in our own and others’ brains. But where is the self located? The answer is not clear and Dennett’s brilliant summary of the neuroscience in trying to further clarify the neurophysiology of selfhood shows that wherever it is, it is not in one location. Reaction-time experiments that monitor different parts of the brain indicate that there is no “Self-contained You.” Instead, “all the work done by the imagined homunculus in the Cartesian Theater has to be broken up and distributed in space and time in the brain” (238).

Neuroscience research shows that we have a functional “layer” of decision-making power that no other species has (this is not a brain layer, but what Dennett calls “a virtual layer” found “in the micro-details of the brain’s anatomy”). For example, “a male baboon can ‘ask’ a nearby female for some grooming, but neither of them can discuss the likely outcome of compliance with this request, which might have serious consequences for both of them, especially if the male is not the alpha male of the troop. We human beings not only can do things when requested to do them; we can answer inquires about what we are doing and why. It is this kind of asking, which we can also direct to ourselves, that creates the special category of voluntary actions that sets us apart” (251).

Dan Dennett is one of the most original thinkers of our time, and this book brings a fresh perspective to an ancient problem. But is it true? Will future commentaries on free will be mere footnotes to Dennett? I doubt it. First, many general readers will not embrace Dennett’s tenets, especially humans as soulless evolved animals and consciousness as nothing more than neuronal activity. Second, many philosophers prefer a free will that is either a form of indeterminism or a cognitive illusion because although it is hard to deny its subjective reality it is equally hard to prove its existence. Finally, although I accept the first six of Dennett’s points (above) and agree that he has thoroughly debunked the indeterminism argument, I remain unconvinced that free will can ever be derived from determinism. I think the best we can do is pseudo-freedom. In the complex world of human beings and social systems the causes are so numerous and interconnected that it is difficult — nigh impossible — to get our minds around the causal net in its entirety. The enormity of this complexity leads us to feel and act free, even if we are actually determined. Since no cause or set of causes we select as the determiners of human action can be complete, freedom arises out of this ignorance of causes.


Also, I would recommend ‘The Problem of the Soul’ by Duke University Professor of Philosophy Owen Flanagan.

[ Edited: 12 October 2009 09:21 AM by Epaminondas ]
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Posted: 12 October 2009 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Excellent post eudemonia. I recently mentioned Dennett’s book “Elbow Room” in the thread “The Physiological basis of self” because I noticed that the notions of ‘self’ and ‘free will’ seem to go together seamlessly. If you are looking for the physiological basis of ‘self’ you might just as well be looking for a physiological basis of ‘free will.’

I thought Shermer did a superb job in tying all of Dennett’s thoughts together in his paragraph with points from #1 to #7 contained.  However, I tend to disagree with Shermer when he states later about point #7, ” I remain unconvinced that free will can ever be derived from determinism. . .”

In my way of thinking ‘free will’ MUST be derived from determinism, otherwise the kind of freedom you will get will not be worth squat.  Just think about a freedom that is indeterminate, what the hell is that? Do you want that kind of freedom?  NO, you want a kind of freedom where YOU are in control of determining the outcome of your own actions.  If the freedom you had was indeterminate (uncaused or even random) what good would such a function serve.  You would then be under the sway of unnatural (or let it be supernatural) forces, in fact you would be powerless.  BUT, if your free will comes naturally out from a deterministic environment, then you (the physical being yourself) can step into a virtual stream of a causal reality where you might imagine a variety of possible actions that would impact on the present, and from that virtual world you could choose (yes, being constrained by physical, biological, and, intellectual forces) one path of action out of the many possible paths.  Thus you can CONTROL the present outcome of some certain event . . . that’s the kind of freedom we seek!  There is no indeterminate cog in this wheel of causality but freedom arises from the fact of determinism itself when you can anticipate events and act with your own determination at play to unfold a reality marked by the presence of your individual impact.  That is the only kind of freedom worth having.

Bob

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