Project Reason is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. The foundation draws on the talents of prominent and creative thinkers in a wide range of disciplines to encourage critical thinking and erode the influence of dogmatism, superstition, and bigotry in our world.

 
   
1 of 6
1
The difference between a democracy and an oclocracy
Posted: 14 July 2009 04:10 AM   [ Ignore ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  95
Joined  2006-12-26

Famously, Aristotle had an idea that there existed three good type of governments that easily could pervert into bad governments:

Monarchy could degenerate into tyranny.

Aristocracy could degenerate into oligarchy.

And,

Democracy could degenerate into oclocracy (rule of the mob).


While we may be justifiedly suspicious as to whether monarchy or aristocracy are good type of governments, Aristotle does have a point that various governmental types can carry within them the seeds for their own destruction.

That is also the case with democracies, also the modern forms of them:

The oclocracy is essentially a type of government that says ALL attitudes, laws and rights in a society can be dispensed with/ instituted insofar as the majority of the populace wishes it.

But note that this is utterly at odds with the concept of individual RIGHTS.
Whether we regard rights as inalienable or as prima facie rights in a contractual, egalitarian sense, if we are to follow the oclocratic model, the individual as such has NO rights other than those the prevailing majority might concede to him.
If the majority desire to kill all elderly women because sagging breasts are ugly, then the oclocratic model says they are fully entitled to do so.

Yet, in a rights system, the individual can command a degree of respect from the majority on basis of his non-violation of the basic contract.

In order for a rights-based system to actually function, therefore, the desires of the majority are NOT to be regarded as intrinsically valid, but only insofar as they are consonant with the underlying system of rights.
And, equally importantly, if a minority sees that THEIR rights, or some other individuals’ rights are threatened and undermined, then such a minority must be conceded the right to subdue the majority, with violence if necessary.

Thus, to go against the opinion of the majority can be morally justifiable.

A democracy (in the sense of a good government) can then be defined as a system in which the majority vote is to be respected/implemented, INSOFAR as that vote does not violate basic individual rights.
If it does, then it is invalid.

It might be added that, in principle, whereas it is impossible to force upon others a well-functioning democracy, it can be perfectly possible, and indeed justifiable, to force upon others a system that is based upon upholding human rights. In particular, where a large group exists that is commonly involved in flagrant abuse of the human rights of some vulnerable minority, those abuses may be so severe that it would be wrong not to take control and forcibly prevent rights violations. They do not have any rights to violate others’ rights, and insofar as it is probable they will engage in such acts, others are no longer obliged to let them do as they please (i.e, engage in such violations).

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2009 06:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9381
Joined  2008-02-15

Of course that is predicated on “human rights” being objective, but just like the bible they are not.

 Signature 

Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

Kissing Hank’s Ass
The Way of the Mister, Vol. 1: Reparative Therapy

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2009 07:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6960
Joined  2006-12-17

Inayat Khan claimed that there was true democracy and false democracy.  The latter was mob rule and the former was no different than true aristocracy.  The difference between the two was the difference between the statements: “I am the equal of anybody,” and “Nobody is better than I am.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2009 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  95
Joined  2006-12-26
GAD - 14 July 2009 06:32 AM

Of course that is predicated on “human rights” being objective, but just like the bible they are not.

Don’t be offended if somebody rapes you, because you don’t have any right not to be raped.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2009 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2330
Joined  2009-05-28

Basic human rights seem pretty grounded in natural selection to me. Civilizations that fail protect and nourish their citizens fail to survive. Furthermore, technology narrows the gap considerably between weak and strong—even a cripple might have a concealed gun—making polite society a more and more sensible option. No abstract political philosophy really needed to establish that.

 Signature 

Deepak, could we just dial it down?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2009 12:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  95
Joined  2006-12-26
Brick Bungalow - 14 July 2009 12:32 PM

Basic human rights seem pretty grounded in natural selection to me. Civilizations that fail protect and nourish their citizens fail to survive.

Eeh?
What do you mean with “survive”??

Liberal democracies have only been around for the last 200 years (at most, some would say that in the US, it is less than 50 years old), and have not at all shown they are particularly stable against oclocratic development.

Numerous non-rights based societies, slave societies for example, have millennia-long records to show for their ability to survive.

Furthermore, technology narrows the gap considerably between weak and strong—even a cripple might have a concealed gun—making polite society a more and more sensible option.

For whom?
The poor??

No abstract political philosophy really needed to establish that.

What is unjustifiably abstract in what I wrote?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2009 05:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6960
Joined  2006-12-17
arildno - 14 July 2009 12:19 PM
GAD - 14 July 2009 06:32 AM

Of course that is predicated on “human rights” being objective, but just like the bible they are not.

Don’t be offended if somebody rapes you, because you don’t have any right not to be raped.

You don’t have a right not to be raped, you have a right to defend yourself against rape and if you are raped you have a right to justice.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2009 12:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  95
Joined  2006-12-26
burt - 14 July 2009 05:08 PM
arildno - 14 July 2009 12:19 PM
GAD - 14 July 2009 06:32 AM

Of course that is predicated on “human rights” being objective, but just like the bible they are not.

Don’t be offended if somebody rapes you, because you don’t have any right not to be raped.

You don’t have a right not to be raped, you have a right to defend yourself against rape and if you are raped you have a right to justice.

Sure you have.

Everyone has an obligation not to rape you, and would break that obligation if they did, or even tried do break it. (That is equivalent of saying you have a right not be raped)

On account of such a grievous breach of contract, the violator does not any longer retain the human worth that normally would oblige others not to inflict upon him heinous acts like involuntary confinement over a prolonged period of time.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2009 03:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2330
Joined  2009-05-28

Where, fundamentally, do these rights come from? What I was suggesting is that basic human rights are derived from a collective urge to survive and prosper rather than some artificial and detached power of enforcment.

 Signature 

Deepak, could we just dial it down?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2009 03:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  95
Joined  2006-12-26
Brick Bungalow - 15 July 2009 03:02 AM

Where, fundamentally, do these rights come from? What I was suggesting is that basic human rights are derived from a collective urge to survive and prosper rather than some artificial and detached power of enforcment.

It is very interesting questions,
a) Whether rights can be said to exist at all
b) How they “come into existence”

Yet, on a strictly formal level, when I am not trying to elucidate the particularities of any given right (and providing a rationale for that), there can still be deduced (under the assumption of the existence of SOME (unspecified) set of right) a tension between the obligation all of us have to uphold such rights and the desires of the majority in a population.

In a democracy, the majority DO live according to that primary obligation, in an oclocracy, they don’t.

And an oclocracy can, with reference to the obligation to uphold basic rights, be overthrown/kept forcibly at bay if that is the realistic way in how to uphold such rights.

That is, a minority may well be morally and legally justified to rule in oppposition to the majority if the majority is not democratically inclined (in the sense of respecting basic human rights as the foundation for the wielding and distribution of power in a society).

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2009 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9381
Joined  2008-02-15
arildno - 15 July 2009 12:13 AM
burt - 14 July 2009 05:08 PM
arildno - 14 July 2009 12:19 PM
GAD - 14 July 2009 06:32 AM

Of course that is predicated on “human rights” being objective, but just like the bible they are not.

Don’t be offended if somebody rapes you, because you don’t have any right not to be raped.

You don’t have a right not to be raped, you have a right to defend yourself against rape and if you are raped you have a right to justice.

Sure you have.

Everyone has an obligation not to rape you, and would break that obligation if they did, or even tried do break it. (That is equivalent of saying you have a right not be raped)

On account of such a grievous breach of contract, the violator does not any longer retain the human worth that normally would oblige others not to inflict upon him heinous acts like involuntary confinement over a prolonged period of time.

Your just making this up as you go. When the lights go out and the hordes are at your door remind them of their obligation to respect your “rights” and offer them a cookie.

 Signature 

Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

Kissing Hank’s Ass
The Way of the Mister, Vol. 1: Reparative Therapy

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2009 07:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6960
Joined  2006-12-17
arildno - 15 July 2009 03:13 AM
Brick Bungalow - 15 July 2009 03:02 AM

Where, fundamentally, do these rights come from? What I was suggesting is that basic human rights are derived from a collective urge to survive and prosper rather than some artificial and detached power of enforcment.

It is very interesting questions,
a) Whether rights can be said to exist at all
b) How they “come into existence”

Yet, on a strictly formal level, when I am not trying to elucidate the particularities of any given right (and providing a rationale for that), there can still be deduced (under the assumption of the existence of SOME (unspecified) set of right) a tension between the obligation all of us have to uphold such rights and the desires of the majority in a population.

In a democracy, the majority DO live according to that primary obligation, in an oclocracy, they don’t.

And an oclocracy can, with reference to the obligation to uphold basic rights, be overthrown/kept forcibly at bay if that is the realistic way in how to uphold such rights.

That is, a minority may well be morally and legally justified to rule in oppposition to the majority if the majority is not democratically inclined (in the sense of respecting basic human rights as the foundation for the wielding and distribution of power in a society).

What a wonderful argument for oligarchy.  Why, that minority could even be a single individual who happened to know what was “really moral and just” and had the power to enforce it.  Maybe it’s you—have you considered founding a new party with you as glorious leader?  You could have some sort of distinctive dress code to identify your followers—brown shirts maybe?  And of course since you would be the fount of knowledge as to what “rights” needed to be enforced and had a moral obligation to enforce them you certainly could justify the use of violence to gain power.  It’s for the better good, after all, who cares if a few eggs get broken?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2009 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  95
Joined  2006-12-26
burt - 15 July 2009 07:11 AM
arildno - 15 July 2009 03:13 AM
Brick Bungalow - 15 July 2009 03:02 AM

Where, fundamentally, do these rights come from? What I was suggesting is that basic human rights are derived from a collective urge to survive and prosper rather than some artificial and detached power of enforcment.

It is very interesting questions,
a) Whether rights can be said to exist at all
b) How they “come into existence”

Yet, on a strictly formal level, when I am not trying to elucidate the particularities of any given right (and providing a rationale for that), there can still be deduced (under the assumption of the existence of SOME (unspecified) set of right) a tension between the obligation all of us have to uphold such rights and the desires of the majority in a population.

In a democracy, the majority DO live according to that primary obligation, in an oclocracy, they don’t.

And an oclocracy can, with reference to the obligation to uphold basic rights, be overthrown/kept forcibly at bay if that is the realistic way in how to uphold such rights.

That is, a minority may well be morally and legally justified to rule in oppposition to the majority if the majority is not democratically inclined (in the sense of respecting basic human rights as the foundation for the wielding and distribution of power in a society).

What a wonderful argument for oligarchy.  Why, that minority could even be a single individual who happened to know what was “really moral and just” and had the power to enforce it.  Maybe it’s you—have you considered founding a new party with you as glorious leader?  You could have some sort of distinctive dress code to identify your followers—brown shirts maybe?  And of course since you would be the fount of knowledge as to what “rights” needed to be enforced and had a moral obligation to enforce them you certainly could justify the use of violence to gain power.  It’s for the better good, after all, who cares if a few eggs get broken?

Where have I written that I know all the rights??

Nothing like that can be deduced from what I’ve written.

As for the unwarranted fascist smear, you should be more interested in investigating the basis upon which a democracy can be subverted by large-scale fascist movements, and the legitimate measures a democracy may utilize to prevent such a take-over.

It has happened before, in 1933 if you didn’t know it.


Or do you think that whenever met by a large-scale movement of fascism, then a democracy should let itself crumble away?

[ Edited: 15 July 2009 08:41 AM by arildno ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2009 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  95
Joined  2006-12-26
GAD - 15 July 2009 07:00 AM
arildno - 15 July 2009 12:13 AM
burt - 14 July 2009 05:08 PM
arildno - 14 July 2009 12:19 PM
GAD - 14 July 2009 06:32 AM

Of course that is predicated on “human rights” being objective, but just like the bible they are not.

Don’t be offended if somebody rapes you, because you don’t have any right not to be raped.

You don’t have a right not to be raped, you have a right to defend yourself against rape and if you are raped you have a right to justice.

Sure you have.

Everyone has an obligation not to rape you, and would break that obligation if they did, or even tried do break it. (That is equivalent of saying you have a right not be raped)

On account of such a grievous breach of contract, the violator does not any longer retain the human worth that normally would oblige others not to inflict upon him heinous acts like involuntary confinement over a prolonged period of time.

Your just making this up as you go.

Am I, dear?

Then you are excused from following me any further.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2009 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9381
Joined  2008-02-15
arildno - 15 July 2009 08:22 AM
GAD - 15 July 2009 07:00 AM
arildno - 15 July 2009 12:13 AM
burt - 14 July 2009 05:08 PM
arildno - 14 July 2009 12:19 PM
GAD - 14 July 2009 06:32 AM

Of course that is predicated on “human rights” being objective, but just like the bible they are not.

Don’t be offended if somebody rapes you, because you don’t have any right not to be raped.

You don’t have a right not to be raped, you have a right to defend yourself against rape and if you are raped you have a right to justice.

Sure you have.

Everyone has an obligation not to rape you, and would break that obligation if they did, or even tried do break it. (That is equivalent of saying you have a right not be raped)

On account of such a grievous breach of contract, the violator does not any longer retain the human worth that normally would oblige others not to inflict upon him heinous acts like involuntary confinement over a prolonged period of time.

Your just making this up as you go.

Am I, dear?

Then you are excused from following me any further.

No, I have the right and therefore the obligation to keep following you and calling bullshit.

 Signature 

Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

Kissing Hank’s Ass
The Way of the Mister, Vol. 1: Reparative Therapy

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2009 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  95
Joined  2006-12-26
GAD - 15 July 2009 08:30 AM
arildno - 15 July 2009 08:22 AM
GAD - 15 July 2009 07:00 AM
arildno - 15 July 2009 12:13 AM
burt - 14 July 2009 05:08 PM
arildno - 14 July 2009 12:19 PM
GAD - 14 July 2009 06:32 AM

Of course that is predicated on “human rights” being objective, but just like the bible they are not.

Don’t be offended if somebody rapes you, because you don’t have any right not to be raped.

You don’t have a right not to be raped, you have a right to defend yourself against rape and if you are raped you have a right to justice.

Sure you have.

Everyone has an obligation not to rape you, and would break that obligation if they did, or even tried do break it. (That is equivalent of saying you have a right not be raped)

On account of such a grievous breach of contract, the violator does not any longer retain the human worth that normally would oblige others not to inflict upon him heinous acts like involuntary confinement over a prolonged period of time.

Your just making this up as you go.

Am I, dear?

Then you are excused from following me any further.

No, I have the right and therefore the obligation to keep following you and calling bullshit.

Well, you most certainly have that right.

So everybody else has, insofar as they would have been cabaple of doing so, an obligation not to prevent you from exercising that right.

But, wherever did you think YOU have an OBLIGATION to speak out what is your right to speakout?

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 6
1