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I need some help from the Philosophical Naturalists…
Posted: 31 August 2009 07:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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So particles are always here they are just doing the same thing over and over again? So everything comes full circle?, therfore our minds only put a beginning and starting points of where we think matter and these particles existed at one point?  With regards to knowledge, Knowledge only exist becuase of the person mind looking for knowldge, looking for information that is already there, or that we want the knowldge to be there so we go out and find it?

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Posted: 31 August 2009 08:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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nrod20048 - 31 August 2009 07:24 AM

So particles are always here they are just doing the same thing over and over again?

No.

nrod20048 - 31 August 2009 07:24 AM

So everything comes full circle?

If by “full circle” you mean recycled, yeah, but if you mean the same exact particles keep going through the same exact processes, no. Do you think you use the same exact water every time you take a shower, or every week or something like that? You use the water, most of it goes down the drain to be reused. A lot of it is consumed by flora and fauna and is converted into various other compounds and then more processes covert those compounds, and so on. There’s no set pattern to how any given particle moves through these processes.

nrod20048 - 31 August 2009 07:24 AM

therfore our minds only put a beginning and starting points of where we think matter and these particles existed at one point?

The physical structure of our thoughts (i.e. our gray matter) is part of the process, but the thoughts that occupy that structure aren’t a beginning or an end point to anything or anyone but us and our own perceptions and thoughts. Your mind can be considered a beginning and end to your experience and participation in the process, but you’re no more a beginning or end point to anyone or anything else than the average canine or raindrop or leaf or red giant star, etc.

nrod20048 - 31 August 2009 07:24 AM

With regards to knowledge, Knowledge only exist becuase of the person mind looking for knowldge, looking for information that is already there, or that we want the knowldge to be there so we go out and find it?

There is what’s out there. Without minds to learn about it it’s just what’s out there. Until a capable mind comes along and observes and learns what “it” is, it’s just what it is. It doesn’t have a supply of knowledge it gives to an observer, knowledge is just what we call the capacity to observe and remember (store). It’s no more a thing unto itself than our emotions or our other thoughts and cognitive processes. We think about things and we’re motivated internally to consider things in certain ways, but those things don’t somehow transfer those thoughts to us. They just are what they are and we make whatever we make of them ourselves. For example, to me a nicely restored Datsun 240Z is a beautiful machine from which I can derive certain pleasures. To a deer it’s not something it can eat or ... well, reproduce with, so unless the Z car shows signs it might eat or otherwise harm the deer, to the deer it’s an insignificant lump of material (at least as far as I know, but you get the idea).

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Posted: 31 August 2009 01:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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maybe nrod leaves most of his sentences as questions because he doesn’t speak english as a first language. That would also explain odd word choice.

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Posted: 31 August 2009 03:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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hi all. i thought I’d make a comment.  knowledge is reality apprehended by the mind in its authenticitiy.  No partial correct parts and the rest bs.  that’s not knowledge.  reality of course, is a big debate in itself for some.  Is the table really there, etc.  To be “knowledge” it must be believed, however.  you may see something and have exposure to the truth but refuse to believe what you see—or you could obtain in some other way and still disbelieve.  Happens all the time.  Anyway, you don’t have knowledge if you don’t or can’t believe it.  Also, if you have something you “know”; however you’ve based your “knowledge” on defective evidence or an illogical formula, you really only think you know but not really. 
  I cannot know god exists, nor can anyone else (IMHO).  there is no compendium of non-defective evidence strong enough to prove it as an object ,or, as a cause, beyond all other possibilities.  The fact that one can’t explain the reason the universe is here so it must be god, is just as primitive as thinking there’s a god because of lightning or a solar eclipse ( as alluded to eariler in another post).  How could it be that to not know the answer to a cosmological question would by default imply there has to be a god.  Even if I didn’t consider it at least possible the universe started from “quantum fluctuations” what would posess me to think a big pwerful presence in the sky put it all together???.  There is a huge amount of things we may never know—as said by others earlier. 
Thinking about what is beyond what we know of the universe both spatially and temporally is freakin’ amazing and wild and wonderful to discuss and contemplate.  Kind of takes the fun out of it to think it’s stops at god, doesn’t it?  ok that’s my rant. 

skepticx, i’d really appreciate an explanation of the point you’re making in your signature. 

thanks all, .

[ Edited: 31 August 2009 03:27 PM by doggod ]
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Posted: 31 August 2009 05:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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doggod - 31 August 2009 03:24 PM

There is a huge amount of things we may never know—as said by others earlier. 
Thinking about what is beyond what we know of the universe both spatially and temporally is freakin’ amazing and wild and wonderful to discuss and contemplate.  Kind of takes the fun out of it to think it’s stops at god, doesn’t it?

Takes the fun and everything else out of it. You betcha.

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Posted: 31 August 2009 06:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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MeThinks - 12 July 2009 12:06 PM

1. All things that come into being have a cause.

2. The Universe had a beginning.

3. Therefore, the Universe had a cause.

 

1. Complete assumption.

2. And we think the cause may be another universe running into ours.

3. Based on the previous faulty logic.

I had a different outlook on existence.

Everything cannot come from something because of infinite regress. Everything cannot come from nothing because nothing is not real. If it can do something, it is not nothing. So, one possibility is “everything just exists,” but that has the problem of being randomly based when we see order. Then again, perhaps the only working realities are sensible natural realities. But then we’d expect some sort of nonsensical things in our reality. But I had another hypothesis: what if it was neither a thing nor not a thing? Then it’s not exactly a “cause” because it’s not a thing. It’s a hypothetical idea, but it really enthralls me.

[ Edited: 31 August 2009 07:02 PM by Alkan ]
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Posted: 01 September 2009 03:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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the social drama over this used to be interesting, but it does get old, doesn’t it?  It seems to me there’s a lot of things knowledge or truth based people can focus on that has more to do with cleaning up the mess created by umpteen thousand years of fantasy-based dogma and/or opression.  there’s two ways to approach the monkey.  Clean up after it and hope to catch up to the point that you’re ahead of it’s crap stream or stop the monkey from spreading crap.  Two ways to approach it.  I respect both but I tend to think it’s more sensible to try rebuilding and cleaning up thought as opposed to attempting to stop the monkey.  I don’t want to be negative because the face of this and other forums is quite hopeful, however, I get the feeling with most fantasy-based people that “you just can’t get there from here” by argumentation anyway.  it’s a complicated issue for me.  I’ve been trying a long time.  There’s certainly enough info out there right now to bring any person wiith an iota of objectivity to begin to question, isn’t there?

it is mind bending for me to contemplate to cause or source of the source, etc.  I just don’t have enough data from the current state of physics to come to the smallest conclusion about a beginning if there is one.  there’s always something involved in the cause suggested that begs a cause in itself.  so where does that lead us?  I don’t like the infinite regression either but what else is any better?  If someone has an objective answer to this one I’m begging to hear it. Maybe there’s only one infinite per reality and that’s our continuum of causes.  no god just what is there.  just because we can imagine before anything was there doesn’t mean we’re in a reality that at any time was empty whether it loops or is infinitely viable there could be possibly no start and no end—kind of like cosmological version of matter can neither be created or destroyed…..

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Posted: 01 September 2009 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Alkan:

“being randomly based when we see order. “

that’s incoherent.  Almost any perception is non random unless under very strict conditions.

I guess you mean reality is random and our perception of non randomness is just local order.

[ Edited: 01 September 2009 07:17 AM by Matthew_F ]
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Posted: 01 September 2009 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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Alkan - 31 August 2009 06:59 PM

But then we’d expect some sort of nonsensical things in our reality.


I’m not sure if you meant it this way, but a better way to think about this, I would argue, is that we shouldn’t expect to understand, or even to be able to understand, everything.

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Posted: 01 September 2009 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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SkepticX - 01 September 2009 07:26 AM
Alkan - 31 August 2009 06:59 PM

But then we’d expect some sort of nonsensical things in our reality.


I’m not sure if you meant it this way, but a better way to think about this, I would argue, is that we shouldn’t expect to understand, or even to be able to understand, everything.

“I/We don’t know”

tongue rolleye

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Posted: 01 September 2009 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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Well, I didn’t say that it was impossible that we came about by a random process. I was just saying, we probably didn’t based on what we know currently. Who knows what might come along in the future.

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Posted: 01 September 2009 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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Alkan - 01 September 2009 11:27 AM

Well, I didn’t say that it was impossible that we came about by a random process. I was just saying, we probably didn’t based on what we know currently.

Don’t mistake emergent complexity for random process.

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Posted: 01 September 2009 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Some thoughts on ‘randomness’ and ‘chance’ which are largely misunderstood in the debates concerning origins-

Different Senses of Chance

We need to distinguish between two senses of “random”: the one kind that involves a total break in the causal chain, and in which the event is essentially chaotic; the other that requires only unpredictability, such as the decay of unstable atoms, or Brownian motion, but which remains a caused event. These get confused all the time. There is nothing about changes in a genome or a gene pool that is random in the first sense, but much of the second sense. For example, shuffling a deck of cards results in a properly physical process of the rearrangement of each card, yet there is no real way to predict the order of a random shuffle. Cards don’t just materialise in place, but you don’t know what you will end up with (unless you bias the shuffling so it isn’t random).

Gould [1993: 396f] has written about the different senses of “random” and “chance” in science:


“In ordinary English, a random event is one without order, predicatability or pattern. The word connotes disaggregation, falling apart, formless anarchy, and fear. Yet, ironically, the scientific sense of random conveys a precisely opposite set of associations. A phenomenon governed by chance yields maximal simplicity, order and predictability—at least in the long run. ... Thus, if you wish to understand patterns of long historical sequences, pray for randomness.”
Why is this? It has to do with the nature of explanation. An explanation is an answer to a set of questions about something that presents a problem. Historical explanations deal with long and complex processes, with causes that continue back to the beginning of the universe, and are known as etiologies, from the Greek aitos, for ‘cause’. Where does an etiological explanation stop? In science, explanations have to deal with phenomena in their own terms, dealing with the properties of the things being explained. Evolution through natural selection deals with the changes of organisms through time. The causes of mutations are not evolutionary processes; the changes to organisms that result from mutations are. In other words: given that organisms accrue different traits (from whatever causes, and which we now know are mutations) evolution is the result of these in terms of ecological benefits.

Consider an explanation of a falling object’s trajectory. Newton’s laws show that without such things as air friction or rocket exhaust an object falls in a parabola. Yet no object in the existence of the universe has fallen in a mathematically precise parabola. Gravitation from distant objects, winds caused by the weather on a specific day, and friction on irregular surfaces all affect any real trajectory.

A full explanation of the path taken by the cup of coffee my cat knocked onto the floor the other day nees to deal with the history of the manufacture of the cup, the physiology and psychology of the cat, the historical circumstances whereby the cat and cup came into contact, and so forth back to the big bang. Such an explanation is humanly impossible.

These things are “contingent”. Contingency is a technical term used in philosophy and science to label things that are “inessential” to the explanation. There are too many things to be explained, and in any event they do not really affect the efficiency of the explanation. Some things one can take for granted, other things just don’t make a significant difference.

Gould has written that if we could rewind the “tape” of evolution and replay it, the result would not be the same (Gould 1989). Among other things, humans are almost certain not to re-evolve. This is because the number of contingent causes (asteroids hitting the earth, continental drift, cosmic radiation, the likelihood of significant individuals mating and producing progeny, etc) are so high that it is unlikely they would occur again in the same sequence, or even occur at all. If an asteroid hadn’t hit the Yucátan Peninsula 65 million years ago, for example, mammals probably would never have diversified, as they didn’t in the 100 million years before that.

Processes explained by science are affected by their intrinsic properties, the initial conditions and the boundary conditions. The cup fell from 1 meter. That’s an initial condition. There was no real wind, but there was air friction. Those are boundary conditions. The cup had a certain mass and fell in a gravitational field of 1g. Those are the intrinsic properties. These last are not explained by Newtonian physics, but by Einstein’s physics of time and space.

Contingent events are sometimes exceedingly sensitive to the initial conditions. A single slight difference can lead to a radically different outcome. If the cup fell from one meter but into the folds of a rigid tablecloth (a boundary condition), then a millimeter of difference in the way it fell (in its initial conditions) could leave it in pieces on kitchen floor, or in the dog’s sleeping basket and safe, though in need of a wash.

Evolutionary theory explains why objects with certain properties move and change the way they do: how organisms change over time. In evolution, the initial and boundary conditions are contingent. That is the extent, the whole of it, of randomness and chance in the history of life.

Fear of the ordinary sense of chance and random which Gould describes above arises largely from a desire to find meaning in the events of the world around us. Science is not the appropriate place to find this meaning. Neither can meaning be imposed upon scientific explanations. Attempts to impose preconditions on science can have, as they did in the case of Lysenkoism, dire consequences, and at the very least they impede science in its search for adequate understanding of the world around us.

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Posted: 11 September 2009 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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I think it’s worth remembering that the purpose of the parts needn’t transfer up to a purpose of the total.  For example, the purpose (or lack thereof) of our atoms, genes, organs etc needn’t be a factor in the purpose of our selves.  It’s an easy trap to fall into without realising though.

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