Awesome!

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Shermer rocks. You can do it Bill.

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This should be a call to The Reason Project to remove Bill Maher from its advisory board. His stance on vaccinations is not reasonable, and It should be embarrassing for The Reason Project to associate itself with such an intellectually weak man. When Maher interviewed Bill Frist about vaccinations a week ago on his show, you could sense by his facial expressions how overmatched he was, especially when Frist used words like “evidence” and “science.” I’ve watched Maher on HBO for the past two years, and his views on vaccinations are ignorant and reckless.

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I agree with lagwagon7. 

Bill Maher has made too many conspiracy minded comments re vaccines, doctors, “Big Pharma” to be considered a champion of reasoned, evidence-based discourse. 

I second the call to Same to consider removing him from the Advisory Board of the Reason Project.

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Incidentally I agree with Maher that there should be a debate about the genuine necessity of vaccinations as against their risk. However I also agree that he has no place on the advisory board alongside such minds as Harris’ or Jerry Coynes etc. and have long felt so. I think I understand where Sam comes from in having him, wanting to as he put it, discredit bad ideas from a “hundred sides”.  So I get it either way.. Stil to lose a debate to Bill Frist is a bad sign.

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But what kind of debate can you have with somebody who has no scientific background in the subject, and couldn’t understand the scientific literature if he tried.  Debates are always underway in science, but the debates are between people who have a full understanding the accumulated data and the open questions.  Maher, from what he says, lacks even the most elementary understanding (admittedly, like most Americans) of viruses, immunity, and vaccination.  And yet he has a huge forum filled with rabid, thoughtless fans who take everything he says as if it’s gospel.  This is just dangerous, and frankly, embarrassing, to have somebody like that associated with the REASON project.

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i completely agree with the above commenters. maher should be removed and not quietly either.

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John Wilkinson is exactly the kind of “reasonable” person that this project attracts—cult follower.

Should there be a debate about Intelligent Design, John?

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Yes he should be removed.  Maher’s stance on vaccinations is no less ridiculous than a creationists against evolution.  I really like Maher, and watch him ‘religiously’.  However, on this point he’s way out in left field and the importance of this subject should cause those involved with this project serious concern.

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I’ve said for years that this is the one topic that steers BM off into crazyland.  It’s not just vaccinations - it’s medicine and nutrition as well.  He actually thinks that if we only ate organic foods that we would be impervious to disease.  He spent half of his last show making the guests uncomfortable with his views.

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It’s called The Reason Project, not blindly follow and agree with the dominant paradigm. The Frist interview notwithstanding, Maher’s views tend to be well reasoned. We don’t need complete agreement on all specific issues to advance our agenda but a thoughtful approach that allows the truth to emerge from discussion.  I think Maher is an asset.

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Yes simpleton there should be a thousand debates on “Intelligent Design”. That is the only proper way to discredit it. The long term effect of mercury injected in children is worth discussing. The truth, whatever it is never needs to hide from scrutiny and argument. If the evidence clearly indicates that Mormonism is true I want to know about it. Reason and evidence simply cripples the claim that it is. I’m not afraid of questioning and justifying any axioms. The upkeep of any dogma, even liberal ones is of no interest to me.

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I never thought Maher was all that entertaining, let alone brilliant, to begin with. I suppose hosting a television show helps boost one’s profile to some degree. His remarks on vaccination, “big pharma”, etc. just make him sound like an a**hole in the same league as Ben Stein.
I am surprised at his inclusion on this board.

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So Bill made a mistake. Jesus Christ, settle down people. Give him time. People make mistakes. 

I love this website, but I think this whole discussion sounds like a closed-door church board discussing the fate of their outed gay preacher.

I think Shermer’s letter was appropriate and respectful. But let’s not get too fervent when someone’s reason shows a glitch. As many have pointed out, Bill is not a scientist…and neither am I—I take most of what the scientific community has to say on faith, which is the reasonable thing to do.

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One of the other things I’ve noticed on this website is a “holier than thou” attitude that some of the members posts suggest.  It is one of the things that made me question my beliefs in the first place.  Granted, a forum such as this lacks the inflection and facial recognition that face-to-face discourse allows.  Still,the comments on this story are making me think as well.

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rimshot: Yes, people makes mistakes. However, Bill Maher doesn’t think he made a mistake. He had an opportunity to clarify his statements during his Oct. 16 show, but instead, disingenuously, said he just wanted to have a debate about vaccinations. Anyone who watched his interview with Bill Frist knows that’s bullshit. Here are a few comments/questions Bill Maher made during his Frist interview:

Maher: Conservatives always say about health care, ‘You’re going to let the Government run health care, they’re going to screw everything up?’ So why would you be the ones to let them stick a disease into your arm? I mean, I would never get a swine flu vaccination or any vaccine. I don’t trust the government, especially with my health. (Note: A post on Bill Maher’s Twitter account: If u get a swine flu shot ur an idiot.3:37 PM Sep 26th from TwitterBerry · billmaher. Bill Maher ...)

Later in the interview, Maher quotes Dr. J. Anthony Morris, the former control vaccine control officer at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration: “There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway.”  (Note: J. Anthony Morris made those comments during in the 1970s, during the Gerald Ford administration).

Frist says the Morris quote is “absolutely untrue.”
Maher responds: “But they make a lot of money from it [vaccinations].”
Frist: “They do make a lot of money from it, but they’re life-saving.”
Maher: “I don’t think so.”
Frist: “Science says otherwise.”

It seems odd that a reasonable person who wants to debate the merits of vaccines says they don’t save lives and are a conspiracy by pharmaceutical companies to keep people sick. It’s also peculiar that a self-described “rationalist” sources a 30-year-old quote from one man (a former government employee) over science and medicine.

With all that said, I enjoy Bill Maher. He’s entertaining, especially his commentary on political and social issues. I just don’t get how a man can rail against stupid Americans, rip 9/11 conspirators and chastise Obama birthers yet embrace a conspiratorial, non-scientific view about vaccines and the companies that develop/administer them.

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lagwagon: good call. I havent seen the interviews myself, so I am just going off of what I have heard/read.

But I still think its a case of boy-cries-wolf, Maher being the hunter that finally says ‘fuck it…die kid.’ Pharmaceutical companies are crooked bastards…I don’t think that’s a conspiracy theory. And when a non-scientist is applying pressure to these companies that do, in fact, do everything they can to maximize profits, then I can see how he would take it too far. Bil may be ignorant on many scientific issues, but I think many scientists are ignorant with regards to business world.

We have to funnel our collective knowledge and connect the dots. When someone goes too far in an area that they aren’t knowledgeable about, I think its forgivable. But some of these posts cry “traitor!” 

I think bill will come around…if he doesn’t on this issue, ill be very disappointed.

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rimshot: I would hope Bill Maher is swayed by the evidence about vaccines. But it doesn’t sound like that’ll happen. We’ll just have to accept that Maher is prone to donning a tinfoil hat every now and then, just like the stupid Americans he’s rails against on his show.

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Well done; I completely agree.  I am a big fan of Bill Maher and watch his show every week; but I have to tune him out when he talks about immunizations.  It is completely hypocritical to preach science and reason when talking about religion, then abandoning them when discussing immunizations.

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ORRRRRRRRRRRRR you can stop with vaccines and allow people to actually build their own resistance to diseases and allow the weak to die off.

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”...you have fallen prey to the same cognitive biases and conspiratorial thinking…”

It is rather rude (not to mention unreasonable) to attack a person’s psychology because you disagree with them on an empirical topic, but I am not convinced that the Reason Project is truly interested in Reason. Scientific hegemony seems to be the real goal here - purging all the unbelievers.

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I like Bill.  I disagree with his stance on vaccinations.  I do not believe he should be removed from the RP Board.  He is well-educated, brave, and has a voice that reaches many.  I think he made a mistake.  He doesn’t need to apologize to me, but I hope he changes his mind in the near future or, at the least, stops spewing that nonsense about the H1N1 vaccine.

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Perhaps instead of embracing the Vatican’s approach to dealing with errant officials by either sweeping them under the rug or out the door, TRP could distinguish itself by properly arguing with and (I would hope) convincing Maher that vaccination is a legitimate program.  Is this The Reason Project or The Dogma Project?

It does nothing to boost one’s credibility to attack another party’s policies in one moment, and then turn around and employ the same tactics in the next.  I would expect better of the TRP.

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Me think yoqui good comment.  All people not same and not all smart and diversity is good. You want everyone agree?  Me like discussion.  Maybe some vaccination not good. Big pharma want much money and maybe don’t care how get it.  Lots people have crazy ideas sometime.  Ex.:  Me think maybe putting babies and toddlers in front TV long time with unintelligible sound and moving pictures may be factor for autism, but no proof. 
Maybe crazy, but me not Tarzan!
There are may different ideas out there.  Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make them wrong.
I like Bill and admire his guts to say what he thinks on TV.

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I like the way John Stuart put it.  What we learn from the news is that we should be worried that vaccines are poisoning us. But what is even worse, there isn’t going to be enough for everyone.

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Excellent! Thanks!

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Worth looking at…

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/21/cbsnews_investigates/main5404829.shtml

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Bravo, bravo!

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I’ve always liked Bill and I think he should be given time to reconsider his postition on vaccination, which to me seems untenable given the overwhelming evidence that it works.

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What Maher said was there needs to be a debate on the merit of vaccinations. From what I have seen in the media there already is a debate on their effectiveness.  Even if you are of the opinion that vaccinations are effective you should support an open debate if nothing else but to solidify your position with evidence.

Obviously vaccinations work. Do you know any Americans with Polio or Small Pox? But there are questions. How effective are vaccinations for mutating viruses like the cold and flu? Are we solving the problem or are we propagating future problems? Is this about science or money and scare tactics?

Maher is simply acknowledging that fact that a debate already exists in the media. Responding, “well that’s a stupid question” is not going to educate the masses. It is time for science to do the talking. Maher is not a scientist.

Since when do we have a problem with non-scientists asking scientists questions about science? Are we not here to correct the dogma? He quoted Dr. J. Anthony Morris. There is at least one man of science who claims vaccinations have no effect. Clearly a debate is required.

Note: I am not taking a side of what works or does not work. I am simply point out that people have questions and the Reason Project needs a better answer than “that’s stupid to ask”.

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Is Bill Maher still on the BoA of this project, and if so, why?

Rat, you are an idiot.  “Maher is simply acknowledging that fact that a debate already exists in the media” is a gross misrepresentation of Maher’s position, and you ought to know better.

What’s next?

“Ray Comfort is simply acknowledging the fact that there is a debate regarding Intelligent Design and evolution in the media”, and therefore we ought to give ID some credence?

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Careful, careful, everyone. Adhering to reason does not mean everyone reaches the same conclusions. Apparently Bill has seen or heard or read something that causes him to mistrust vaccinations. I’m convinced he’s wrong, as are most of the rest of us, but all this talk of throwing people off boards smacks of excommunication for blasphemy. Maher is clearly a strong proponent of reasoned thinking and we should have a big enough tent to accommodate dissenting conclusions. We are about promoting a method of arriving at a conclusion, not the conclusions themselves.

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Tiberian,

For your third sentence change vaccinations to Evolution and you can easily see the level of discourse in which Maher is operating.  He’s made no reasoned argument for his positions on vaccines and other health related issues where he’s way out in left field.  He’s simply dismissed ANY evidence brought forth by others on his show without justification.  Sounds familiar no?  This project should be about more than just reason with regards to religion.

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I have always liked BM but after watching Religulous I noticed that he never really lets people talk very much to develop their ideas before cutting them off.  I don’t have much patience for the religious point of view either but I am not surprised at his stance on vaccinations as it shows his tendency to not be open to counter-arguments about subjects he has made up his mind on.  Surely we could all use more restraint regarding opposing opinions and facts but he has blundered big time on this issue.  It’s probably the weed interfering with his ability to think rationally on this topic,lol….>puff<..>puff<....(blowing smoke cloud)...COUGH!!  drugs are bad mmmmmmkay??

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“Simpleton: What’s next? Ray Comfort is simply acknowledging the fact that there is a debate regarding Intelligent Design and evolution in the media, and therefore we ought to give ID some credence?”

What I said is putting your fingers in your ears and saying “La la la, there is no debate” is not going to convince the skeptics. We need to acknowledge the debate and present the scientific evidence. I am not denying the validity of vaccinations.

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My daughter has autism caused by your precious vaccines. I guess it must affect you to believe it. Here is more info…
The SafeMinds study, “Generation Zero,” details these initial findings based on data contained in spreadsheets and related email traffic from former Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) research fellow, Dr. Thomas Verstraeten. In his analysis, secured by SafeMinds through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, Verstraeten examined the connection between mercury exposure and childhood disease for the first time. SafeMinds board member and published researcher Mark Blaxill prepared the review and chose the title “Generation Zero” for two reasons: 1) the CDC analysis compared autism risks in children with high thimerosal exposure levels to children with zero exposure levels, a logical approach they abandoned later; and 2) these CDC analyses preceded four subsequent generations of reports that an earlier Safe Minds study designated Generation One through Four.

“Verstraeten’s initial analysis reveals two important facts,” Blaxill said.  “First, CDC official were aware in 1999 of an eleven fold increase in autism risk in children who received vaccines containing thimerosal versus children who received no exposure.  Second, in four subsequent generations of reports using this data, the CDC never revealed their initial risk findings to the Institute of Medicine, nor to Congress when called upon to present evidence during relevant hearings.”

Thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative used for years in many vaccines, lies at the center of the vaccine-autism debate.  Although the dangers of early childhood mercury exposure have long been recognized,vaccines, including those given to infants, still contain this potent neurotoxin.

“In the most straightforward analysis of the risk of mercury exposure in children, Verstraeten discovered significant extremely elevated risks of autism as well as a range of childhood developmental disorder including ADHD and sleep disorders. In emails accompanying his analyses, Verstraeten invited his colleagues to find ways to explain away these findings. Predictably, his alarming analyses were suppressed by the CDC. Only watered-down reports were ever shared and fourth of these was made public several years late, discounting any autism-mercury link,” continued Blaxill.

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I don’t agree with everything Bill Maher says, but I was flabbergasted at his grossly uninformed views on vacccination. But let’s try to get at the root problem here.  There are two issues:  distrust of government and distrust of science.  It is a sad comment on American society that so many people don’t bother to become informed about either.  Since Watergate, Irangate, and W’s regime, we certainly have clear reason to be suspiciousand distrustful.  The problem in those 3 particular cases is that the American people weren’t paying enough attention, allowed checks and balances to become skewed, and voted for images rather than substance.  In the case of distrust of science, in particular re immunizations, it is both willful ignorance and sheer stupidity to deny the benefits and “general” safety of vaccinations.  By “willful ignorance”, I mean people choose to not learn important information, either because they are lazy or because they want someone else to do the work for them.  The “stupid” part comes in when they DO let the “experts” do the work for them, then distrust it.  21st Century Americans don’t remember healthcare before the 1950s, which included rampant death from diseases such as polio, diptheria, whooping cough, measles, chicken pox, malaria, influenza, pneumonia, and others.  To NOT get children immunized is not just stupid, it can lead to the preventable death of the helpless entrusted to our care.  And studies too numerous to mention have shown again and again that autism is NOT caused by vaccinations.  In fact, the rate of autism is as high now AFTER thimerosal is no longer used.  It is the recognition of the autism spectrum and symptoms which has increased the numbers, not vaccines.  Further, autism is apparently a genetically-inherited disorder.  The fact is governments should be watched closely.  And we should take the responsible upon ourselves to learn the science, not deny it because we are heartbroken and want something to blame.  I was born with a detached retina and a tumor on the optic nerve.  Do I blame anyone or anything.  NO!  It just happens.  Tough break, life goes on.  You do the best you can with what you’ve got, but you learn facts, not rumors.

And Bill Maher is as imperfect as the rest of us.  I have learned from life that the hardest thing about being human is the problem of consistency.  Give Bill a chance to correct his willful ignorance.  As he is a man of integrity, I believe that he will.

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I must say there are compelling arguments on both sides. However, I think to demonize someone as being “anti-science” and that they should be booted from the advisory board because they are concerned about the efficacy of a vaccine.
I think Bill, and I, both are not doubting science or evolution, what we’re doubting is the QUALITY of the vaccine being given. Polio and many other deadly diseases have been nearly wiped out by vaccines. The problem as I see it, is that the pharms have rushed this vaccine to market and have used questionable methods and ingredients such as squalene and aluminum to amplify the effects. This concerns me. I and my family eat only whole natural foods and we stay very fit, our immune systems are sufficient to fight the flu, however, most Americans cannot say this, and they who live on fast food and processed food and are overweight, have nearly no immune system and therefore desperately need the vaccine, my only wish is that we could trust the vaccine they produce to be safe and toxin free.

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Ya know, after my last post I read some of the previous posts, and I gotta say, alot of the people in here are real snobs. So, we can’t debate an issue unless we are scientists? I am not an MD, but, I can read and evaluate facts and figures without a PHD. My lowly little radio frequency engineer self should stick to arguements over allocating spectrum and stay out of your “intellectual” debates? I think Maher may be a little off on this, but, as I said previously, I don’t think any of you SCIENTISTS that are so “qualified” to comment on this, don’t listen very well. His, and many other “non-experts” do see the numbers on possible side effects and this stuff they call MERCURY, seems to us little people that the MERCURY stuff isn’t good for us, maybed even worser for us than that flu thingy. So maybe if all tyou geniuses and experts could produce a vaccine, the SCIENCE of which we have never questioned, that was SAFE and EFFECTIVE we wouldn’t need to doubt you college types.

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In very rare cases, even polio vaccine, causes the disease in the child.
Evey vaccine has a chance of that.
Common or H1N1 flu mutates, the specific inoculed virus in the shots are probably a previous version.

It will have the intended effect in some people, others will suffers from activation of the shot’s virus in many degrees.

Letting alone conspiracy theories, I believe that the shot will bring more good than problems. But there is also a placebo effect that the government may benefits from.

Maher has his rights of doubting

If we believe in every and each case of vaccination, we will have blind faith.

Every subject should be discussed and re-discussed.
Vaccines are the best we have? yes
Vaccines are the best we have to any virus case? probably yes
Should we take Vaccines for granted and not research for alternates? not!

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I love Bill.  But his stances on three things: Food, Climate Change, and Vaccinations are troubling to me because he basically regurgitates what I’ve heard other environmental loonies out to make a buck have said.  No, I am not saying that climate change isn’t real, modern food production and delivery methods are optimal, or vaccinations are 100% safe.  I am saying, as any true skeptic ought to be, that NO issue is beyond scrutiny

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